Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
Peter Vekinis (KC1QF)
on
June 4, 2006
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I have enjoyed HF mobiling for many, many years. First with a VW Golf (1984) and then with a small Japanese SUV (1989). HF mobiling was great, fun and an interesting way to show off amateur radio to the masses.
Then I modernized by buying a 1999 Jeep Wrangler TJ followed by a 2003 Chrysler Sebring convertible and the HF mobile radio ended quickly.
No, not because I lost interest, but because both these cars are computerized to death and the generated noise kills all the fun I have had.
So what to do? Well, seeing this as a challenge, I started looking around to see what I could do. I decided to start on the TJ. Over a few years I did the following:
- Installed a marine deep cycle battery to separate the power system to the radio (including a battery isolator, a fuse box and filter unit): Noise still there
- Grounded everything, including the muffler to the chassis: Noise still there
- Tried to see if it was the fuel pump (turn the key to on, but don't start the engine, you will hear hash). Part of the noise was there.
- Changed the spark plugs to interference plugs: Noise is still there.
- Went to eham.net and uploaded a video with the noise on my IC-706MKIIG.
Till this date, anyone with a signal under 5 or 6 can not be heard, which means that the fun with mobile DXing has gone the way of the dodo.
I haven't even started with the Sebring yet.
So what else if there to do? Best practice, that's what!
Maybe someone out there has managed to fix Jeep TJ noise and is willing to share his/her information. Maybe such information exists for many other cars.
With so many computerized-to-the-teeth autos around these days (and more in the future) it is time we make such information public.
What about http://eham.net setting up a page with automobile interference data, broken down according to a manufacturer and model basis? What about an attached list of working fixes (not just tries) from people who fixed noise in their cars and how they did it?
What do you all think about that?
73s to all,
Peter, KC1QF/VE3PPV
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by W9RPE on June 4, 2006
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I first ran an Icom 706MKIIG and an ATAS-120 in my 2003 Monte Carlo SS. I could never get rid of the noise from the Monte. Not even with the noise blanker or DSP. Sold the 706. A year later I bought a new Yaesu 857D and ATAS-120 again. I had the same noise. But, this time when I pushed the 857D's noise blanker on every single bit of the noise dissapeared. Quiet as could be except for the signals on whatever band I was using. THe Yaesu got rid of the noise the Icom could not. Just my experience.
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by KD4AC on June 4, 2006
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Have you checked out Alan's website? www.k0bg.com
This is probably one of the best sites out there for setting up a good mobile installation.
KD4AC
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by KC5TTL on June 4, 2006
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KD4AC
"Have you checked out Alan's website? www.k0bg.com
This is probably one of the best sites out there for setting up a good mobile installation."
--
Unfortunately Alan has proved himself the TrollMaster of all Trolls and has lost any resemblance with someone that has any profesional credability dealing with amateur radio -
oh wait -- thats Satire -- sorry about that
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by K0BG on June 4, 2006
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With just a couple of exceptions, the majority of the "noise" you hear from the speaker is RFI from the ignition system. By the very nature of ignition systems, the rise time of the induced spark is very quick, and some evidence of it can be heard upwards of 500 MHz.
Bonding all of the bolted on parts, especially the exhaust system helps, but will never eliminate all of the interference. Ignition shielding also helps on some systems, but actually increases the perceived noise on others. Systems with wires must be treated different than COP or the latest in RFI generators, the igniter systems which combine injector and ignition, all in one.
The use of a noise blanker should be avoided if possible for a variety of reasons. While some NBs are better than others, they all degrade receiver performance to some degree. A good DSP helps, but isn't a cure-all either.
You might check my web site, and look under Noise ID. Near the bottom of the article is a 3.5 MB file N1KK sent me. I wonder if these is the noise you are hearing?
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by VE1IDX on June 4, 2006
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In my opinion DSP does NOTHING to help.Sure it may clean up a BIT of the audio from a signal that is S9+ but it does nothing to help an S-7 signal when the ignition noise is S-9.I have a lot of ignition noise in my 2005 Escape and the FT-857 hears all nine S-units of it.Turn the DSP on and it still can't hear any better.The noise blanker helps a bit but as for the DSP it was just an expensive option at the time that could have been left out.I sat the FT-857 and my Kenwood TS-820S side by side and compared the filtering and noise rejection of each.My results.....anybody know where I can get the mobile DC supply for my TS-820??I have a LOT of work to do with the RFI from the 6 cylinder COP ignition system. :(
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by K1CJS on June 4, 2006
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Along with the evolving ignition systems on todays cars and trucks must come evolving approaches to solve the noise problems that plague more and more of these vehicles.
GM vehicles and possibly others now have individual 'coils' on each spark plug and low voltage control wiring to each unit. Add to that the RF that is produced by the control systems, the main computer and the various motors, relays, switches, etc. and you have a noise generation machine approaching staggering proportions.
Bonding may help in some cases, but not in all. Ferrite beads on the car wiring may also help, so may capacitors across the various motors and contacts in the car electrical system.
The first step should be making sure the co-ax used in your set-up is 100% shielded. That may eliminate some of the noise. Continue with ferrite bead installation and further shielding which may eliminate more, and so on until you can get the noise down to manageable levels.
Unfortunately, there is no magic fix for the problem, only a systematic elimination of potential sources until the noise is gone.
One thing you may try is a call or visit to a local 2 way radio installation shop. Those businesses would more than likely be the best place to find out about trouble spots in your vehicle which cause excessive noise--only be prepared to pay for the information you may require. After all, those places may have come by the information the hard way, by actual trial and error getting rid of the noise.
Good luck and 73.
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by K7AAT on June 4, 2006
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If the problem is ignition noise, there are a multitude of procedures to follow to attenuate the source. I'll leave those comments to others.
There is one procedure I didn't see posted here, if the noise is electronically generated. With the ignition switch on, remove fuses from the fuse block, one at a time, to see if the noise suddenly goes away. If one fuse removed happens to clear things up, at least you can isolate the problem to that particular circuit and go from there. Good luck.
Ed
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by K7LRB on June 4, 2006
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Disappointed to see the smear posted by KC5TTL. This was a good post up until then.
I just installed a new Icom 706 in a 2005 Grand Caravan. I may post the details elsewhere for those interested. The neat thing is that the installation can be removed with no evidence there ever was a radio/antenna installed. Neat.
Anyway, the first thing I noticed was the ignition noise. Turned on the noise blanker and "bye bye", zero noise. While it MAY be true that the noise blanker degrades receiver performance, I just completed a 4,000 mile trip with this setup and had many successful QSOs just about any time I wanted. I will probably take steps to eliminate/reduce the generated noise, but it is not a deal killer the way it is. Just having lots of fun!
73,
Larry
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by KK8ZZ on June 4, 2006
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RUN, do not walk, from ANYTHING made by FORD.. I spent HUNDREDS trying to eliminate the NOISE.... give it up !!! I traded the POS 2006 for a Toyota Highlander and never looked back...
You folks who went to Dayton 2006, notice that FORD was ABSENT this year? There's a reason for that !!!
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by HA5RXZ on June 4, 2006
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1) Contact the vehicle manufacturer and ask if they can help.
2) Make friends with the electrician at your local dealership.
3) Make your next vehicle a diesel.
HA5RXZ
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by W5GNB on June 4, 2006
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I have a 1997 GEO TRACKER that produced all sorts of noise on 40 and 80 meters. I found it to be the onboard computer which is mounted under the driver side dashboard just above the clutch peddal. I put a ferrite filter on each of the three multiconcuctor wire plugs on the thing and ALL the noise went away.
You would think they would fix these sort of things during production prior to putting them out on the market.
73's
Gary - W5GNB
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by K7PEH on June 4, 2006
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>>RUN, do not walk, from ANYTHING made by FORD.. I spent HUNDREDS trying to eliminate the NOISE.... give it up !!! I traded the POS 2006 for a Toyota Highlander and never looked back...<<
I don't know much about Fords or the Highlander with regard to noise but I can say that my Chevrolet Silverado truck is noise free. And, I don't think I did anything to create this noise free vehicle, it was that way to start with (I think).
I did follow almost all of Alan's recommendations. The only one that I considered (before the fact) but did not implement was wrapping the spark plug thingies with copper tape. My Icom 706 is as quiet when the truck is running as when the motor and ignitions systems are off. I did not need to do anymore.
I just consider myself lucky though but I am putting in my two-bits for Chevy trucks. To be specific, mine is a 2004 2500 HD 4-wheel drive, crew-cab, Silverado with Onstar, 6-CD in dash changer and AM/FM and Satellite Radio read with big gas V8 and automatic transmission. Oh, it is also black in color -- maybe that is the key, get yourself a black vehicle.
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by KB1GMX on June 4, 2006
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With 35+ years of commercial landmobile, CB and Ham I can say a few things.
Every make and model has it's own noises.
The solution for one may not work for another or it
may require more. Some cases a solution is available from the manufacturer. In the latter case the dealer
can be helpful or useless.
It's a troubleshooting task, akin to a foxhunt. First is actually finding the noise, then its source. Often the fix is simple once you have the target.
Ignition noise is nothing like years ago and a noise blanker work best for pulse noise like that. Also needed to suppress the other guys noise!
Some antennas are oddly worse for noise than others!
Some radios are more noise prone to any noise conducted in via the power leads.
Odd fixes over the years.
Grounding the exhaust pipe at both ends. But not the middle!
Moving (routing) the coax via the other side of the
car as the power wiring was on one side and noisy!
Moving the ground from the battery to the point where the battery ground lead connected to the frame. On another car the reverse was needed to get rid of alternator whine!
Replacing a weak but not noticably so battery (alternator whine).
Moving the base loaded whip from one side of the rear to the other!
Grounding the trunk lid with copper strap.
Grounding the hood with copper strap at both hinges.
Grounding the base of the antenna to the chassis rather than the fender.
All time oddest, constant buzzing in a Chevy, before
we could find it an accident (hit from behind rear quarter) put it in the body shop. Noise not there after getting it back!
Worst cars varied from year to year even for the same model and body. An example a company orders 3 Chevy
C20 pickups (1979) all identical, all three had different noise problems for VHF high band radios
(identical radios!).
Each car/truck has to be troubleshot and it's particular problems solved. With current noise
blankers ignition noise should be a limited at worst
problem. Computer noises are not solved with noise blankers. A portable AM transistor radio can help find noises.
Allison
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by N6AJR on June 4, 2006
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I have a 94 ford f 150 4wd with a 350 gas engine. I run a ft 847 in it with a DK-3. nice setup and little to no noise. I also have a dodge intrepid with an 857d and a atas120 and again no problems, I also run a ft 857d in the dodge stratus with a atas 100, no problems,
I use good grounds on all my rigs and antennas..
if that don't work then cobver everything with tin foil.
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by K3UD on June 4, 2006
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I agree about some of the Ford products. My wife drives a Ranger pick up amd th e hash wipes out a lot of the AM band. Forget doing much with a typical transceiver with a typical noise blanker.
However,
I agree with those who say the the noise blanker in the 857 works really well on most of the hash and other crap that is generated by today's vehicles. I don't have an 857 but do have an FT-100. Mobiling in either my 2002 Astro van, or my wife's Ranger and our Pontiac Sunfire is a pleasure when using the FT-100. The 857 is close to being an updated but repackaged version of the FT-100 and apparantly shares the same blanker circuitry.
My old TS-520 Kenwood had a blanker that would take out any vehicle noise back in its era and my 520s also did well in vehicles up to about 2003 when I sold it.
73
George
K3UD
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by AA4PB on June 4, 2006
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I have a 2002 Mazda B3000 (supposedly the same as, and made in the same plant as, the Ford Rangers). I have very little ignition noise (easily taken out by the blanker) and no fuel pump or other noise.
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by N4HRA on June 4, 2006
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Look at the ignition systems as a spark-gap xmit, and the exhaust system as the antenna.
All I have ever used was:
(a) A good ground bond to the frame
(b) Ran both the DC pos and DC Neg to the battery
(c) Bonded the radio to ground.
(D) Good Bond to Ground at the antenna mount
I have ran older HF rigs Tempo 2020 & CIR Astro 200A
(with out noise blanker) in Fords, Chevy, and Dodge with no problems. I have a Kenwood TS-B2000 in my Carvan and don't and have yet to use the noise blanker. Using the method I listed above
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by AB2MH on June 4, 2006
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I have a 2004 Honda Accord with navigation and side curtain airbags.
As you can see, there is supposed to be a LOT of noise in this vehicle!
But on most bands, the noise is less than S1 on my Icom 7000, even with the pre-amp on.
I don't know for sure, but I am guessing that Honda did a pretty good job of noise supression.
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by N0AH on June 4, 2006
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It begins with the right radio............Alinco and Radio Shack being on the bottom of the list.
My Yaesu FT-900 auto-noise suppression has been exceptional. So is my Cobra 149GTL. Go figure.......using the same power cord, antenna, etc....I've narrowed it down to the rigs filtering ability.
You might spend 90% on your time trying to find and suppress noise. But your rig is going to be responsible for 90% of your noise suppression.
73 Paul N0AH
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by KI4BDS on June 4, 2006
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I have a diesel and everytime I get to a stop light I jump out and inform everyone around me they are causing harmful interference.I have made so many new friends. Actually, I have used good ol 12V capacitors with a lot of success. Karl KI$BDS
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by WA4UF on June 4, 2006
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Pull over and kill the ignition! :-)
(Sorry, just COULD not resist being a wise guy!)
I've a 2001 Accord and a 1999 Taurus, and an FT-100 I move back and forth depending on which car we're taking on the trip. The only noise problems I've had lately are with the A/C blower fan on the Taurus. The Honda appears to be utterly noiseless. Haven't had the fuelpump noise problems on the Taurus that I had on my 89 Sable that drove me to distraction before I drove the car to the junkyard.
73 all, and mobile safely.
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by W5XU on June 4, 2006
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Have a 2006 GMC and has a troble on 20M using a 706. A .2mfd cap on the output of the alternator to ground did the trick.
Good luck.
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by WG4RAY on June 4, 2006
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Absolutely, positively check out the dealer service builletins. Every major US, and most of the foreign manufacturers have information on how to make their systems work with 2 way radios. They know about their fuel pumps, ignition systems, and so on...and they have strategies to cope. It's not always easy to find the right information, but it's in there. Get your local service folks to contact the regional or factory folks if they can't find it themselves.
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by N4ZOU on June 4, 2006
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With fuel prices being what they are, I switched to a bicycle! It does have a computer for reading stuff like your speed and distance and it produces an annoying pop sound on HF every time the little magnet on a spoke trips the little reed switch on the fork. I found the fix is to simply press the release button and remove the computer from its quick release mount and put it in a gear bag and no more noise! As for power, I use a 7-amp hour SLA battery. I tried one of the bicycle generators driven by the tire to recharge it but that�s way too much effort, especially if you're climbing a hill! Now I just plug it in where a power outlet is available. You would be surprised at how many places will allow you to charge your battery while your eating in there restaurant or hanging around a rest area. Even Wal-Mart was kind enough to allow me to charge up while shopping! Needless to say it's a QRP so it's even more fun when operating. It's also neat to be able to get around without purchasing expensive gasoline or diesel fuel. It's also good for the body. I dropped 35 LBS of excess fat and have never felt better!
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by AB2MH on June 5, 2006
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WA4UF wrote:
>Pull over and kill the ignition! :-)
Yeah but if you do that, then your radio won't output full power. Especially if it's an icom HF radio.
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by K8MHZ on June 5, 2006
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My friend has an Intrepid that used to produce a noise on his VHF rig. The problem turned out to be a bad serpentine belt that was causing static. That was a new one on me.
I don't know about any of the other makes, but Chrysler has no factory training available for the reduction of interference to radios, not even their own AM radios! I used to work for a Chrysler dealership and people would complain about vehicle generated interference on AM. I was left to figure out the problems on my own. Calling tech support did nothing but waste everyone's time. It helped little that the factory antennas were VHF 1/4 wave groundplane types and are too short to hear AM broadcast but were fine for the reception of AM noise.
When I start looking for noise problems I like to try to figure out where it is entering the radio. I can come in via the DC leads, the antenna or the feedline (including poor connections). Next I try to locate the generator of the noise, i.e. an onboard computer, and then the radiator of the noise, i.e. wires connected to the computer. One may have to address both the radio and the source in order to get a quiet system.
Trust me, with new technologies like predictive cruise, On-Star and Bluetooth our problems have only just begun.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by KB9BPF on June 5, 2006
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I've spent over a month getting HF installed in my 2002 Chevy Tracker and I found that the worst noise came from the tank-mounted fuel pump, generating S9 noise levels on 75M. Bonding the frame to the body chassis in several places and the exhaust system to the frame in several places was very helpful, reducing the fuel pump noise to S2 on 75M and eliminating it altogether on 20M.
I started adding bonding straps near the front and worked my way back, not noticing any difference until I got the back-most sets installed. I think what happened was that once I got the body chassis, which covers the top of the tank, and the metal bottom tank cover, which is attached to the frame, bonded together they began to act as a faraday shield around the pump.
I still intend to have a friendly local mechanic drop the tank so that I can do bypassing and shielding right at the pump motor connections, which should reduce my fuel pump noise even more if not eliminate it completely. Then I'll experiment with the COP shielding techniques discussed by K0BG in his article, because now I can hear that there is some ignition noise and even though my IC-706's noise blanker does take out most of it, I'd like to be able to run without the NB, which can be a noise creator on some strong signals.
Now if I could just get the power company to fix the power line noise along the main road that I travel back and forth to work!
73 de Brad KB9BPF
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by K0BG on June 5, 2006
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The posts here repeat several very important facts that need repeating, perhaps several times:
Two otherwise identical vehicles will have vastly different levels and types of RFI (commonly called noise). The majority is from the ignition system, no matter its makeup, design, or layout. Ignition systems, by their very nature, are transmitters, and we're trying to suppress and/or cover them up. It is not an easy, one step job!
What works on one vehicle will not necessarily work on another. I've had vehicles that you couldn't suppress the noise level low enough to use FM effectively. I've had two that didn't require any noise suppression. If I knew why this was so, I could become a millionaire almost over night.
No single suppression technique is 100% effective. This goes for bonding, split beads, shielding, bypassing, grounding, or any other technique. Rather, it is a step by step procedure that may be just a few steps long, or a mile of rough terrain.
There are a few things people think are the cure all, but are not. I've repeated them so many times, I think I'm a broken record.
Grounding an antenna mount is NOT a replacement for a ground plane. It won't suppress any RFI from any source. If it did for you, then something else was amiss.
The higher up on the vehicle you mount your antenna, the less induced noise you will have, and the better the antenna will work (efficiency wise). The better the antenna works, the better the signal to noise ratio the receiver will have, and the less noise you'll perceive.
Another way to increase antenna performance is bonding. While it does help suppress noise, its best attribute is that it maximizes what little ground plane a vehicle offers.
A mobile antenna is a compromise among compromises, and the very best money can buy, is lousy in terms of efficiency. Anything less than the best money can buy, anything less than drilling the proper holes and using the best materials, is exactly that; less! Which means, the perceived noise is higher too.
And lastly, no temporary, half fast installation will ever out perform one that is properly planned and executed. The phrase "throw the rig in the car and take a trip.." has no merit.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by M0AFJ on June 5, 2006
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Re HA5RXD, even diesels are not immune, I have a 2005 Honda Acchord 2.2TDi Estate and its hopeless, S7 on all bands with noise from the common rail injector system, it seems that this is a problem with the latest common rail diesels, my old Passat was very quiet. It looks as if I'll be taking out the 706 until I change the car again, I know one thing, the next time at the car dealership I'm taking a FT817 and a loop antenna to poke around under the bonnet (hood).
Regards Tim M0AFJ
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by KX8N on June 5, 2006
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"It's also good for the body. I dropped 35 LBS of excess fat and have never felt better!"
And you call yourself a ham ;)
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can ARRL Do?
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by W9WHE-II on June 5, 2006
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Shouldn't arrl send a letter to FCC "demanding" that all such autos be "shut down immeadiately" as violative of Part 15, they same way arrl did with BPL??
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by N5UV on June 5, 2006
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Solution to automotive RF noise...
Get a Studebaker (the horse-driven kind)...
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by WB2WIK on June 5, 2006
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Go back to an old car?
Although my Volvo wagon generates no noise that I can hear on HF, at all. My mobile rig S-meter lays at zero when the engine's not running, and stays at zero after the engine is running. I can't tell any difference, at all. Using ordinary Hustler foldover mast and screw-on resonators, supported either by a heavy-duty ball mount (rear fender) or "trailer hitch" mount (back end of car, behind the rear gate). Ball mount is a better location, performance-wise, but trailer hitch mount is very, very strong and I never have to worry about it.
What bothers me when I'm mobiling is the noise generated by *other* vehicles on the road, and that can be plenty! Hot rods and motorcycles are about the worst. The other problem is driving under high tension lines. My S-meter can climb to 20/S9 and stay there for several blocks.
Mobiling on HF = "challenge."
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by WI7B on June 5, 2006
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Personally, I have done everything wrong in working 20m from my 2006 Isuzu SUV. I've plugged my TS-480SAT into the back seat cigarette lighter, and used a magnet mount with a mini-HF Iron Horse "wet-noodle" antenna. I have made an RF choke from the coax cable which I slam the door on as it runs to the roof.
With the Kenwood noise blanker engaged, ALL my ignition noise is suppressed. I have worked Japan, Mexico, and Russian Siberia mobile. I have even worked hams in other state who were ALSO mobile (even another mobile TS-480SAT in the Grand Canyon). A true ham's story.
73,
---* Ken
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by K1CJS on June 5, 2006
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"RUN, do not walk, from ANYTHING made by FORD.. I spent HUNDREDS trying to eliminate the NOISE.... give it up!!!......"
OK, then I guess the Crown Victorias are the same? Both the ones manufactured for use as cruisers and the ones for civilian use? I think not. If you spent hundreds, you obviously didn't spend it on the right materials. I personally have a Grand Marquis with the auxiliary power package (extra power takeoff terminals for cruiser applications) and the car has no appreciable noise both on HF and on VHF bands.
As someone else said, it depends on the individual car. Two cars, identical in every respect, may be very different in the amount of RF noise generated in each. One car may be quiet as can be while the other generates RF noise to beat the band.
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by K3CLT on June 5, 2006
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I have a 2005 F-150 company truck that I drive over the east coast. I had the FT-857 in there with very good results. The 857 was fussy about the swr on the 40 meter stick and would act up from time to time. I took that radio out and tried the Alinco DX-70.
That radio was pretty good on 80-40 but was terrible on 20-10.
I have grounded everything, ran the power leads up one side of the truck then up the other side with no difference. I relocated the antenna mount so many times that the truck looks like swiss cheese. The noise is still there.
I decided to wait until the bands get better to see wht can be done. Maybe I can get enough miles on the truck that the company will replace it.
I talked to the Motorola dealer and he is a ham and said that he has a Chevy Tahoe and the noise in it is so bad that he has one commercial frequency that he can't use.
I like the Alinco but its not the radio to use in newer vehicles. Maybe Santa will bring me a new Icom to try.
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by WF7A on June 5, 2006
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Out of idle curiosity, are diesel-powered cars prone to less RF noise than their gasoline counterparts? Since there's no spark plug noise to worry about I imagine there should be less RF interference, but I don't know.
Ciao,
Rich
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by K6FYY on June 5, 2006
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I used to have an S9 noise level every time I turned the ignition switch in my 2005 Scion xA. The engine didn't even have to be running. I assumed it was the car's computer I was hearing.
After months of frustration, I decided to UNPLUG my CELLPHONE CHARGER from the cigarette lighter plug...
Noise gone. S-ZERO.
Just a thought.
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by AH6RR on June 5, 2006
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I have a Dodge Dakoda (1995) and the ignition noise is S-9 until I push the nosie blanker on my TS-440 then it's gone. I installed it in a ford ranger and the noise would go away also, the IC-706 MKII would not touch it at all.
Get a TS-440S and no more noise.
Roland AH6RR
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by KX8N on June 5, 2006
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"Get a TS-440S and no more noise."
The TS-440S is a beauty anyway. That was my first HF rig, and I absolutely LOVED that thing. SO STUPID of me to sell it.
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by WI7B on June 6, 2006
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...or a TS-480. NO IGNITION NOISE with a Kenwood.
And correct. FOr some reason the cellphone chargers are very poorly shielded and put out a heck of alot of RF hash. Unplug 'em.
73,
---* Ken
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by KL3NP on June 6, 2006
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My good friend had such a RFI problem in his '98 Chevy Sierra, he had to stop the truck and shut it off to carry on a QSO. Going down the road he could not make out conversation.
After much investigation, we found the source: The distributor cap. Replaced with a new one and completely quiet.
If you own a vehicle with a traditional distributor, are having RFI problems, and the cap has not been replaced in a long time, try this.
KL3NP
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by KB2CPW on June 6, 2006
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I have a Honda Insight Hybrid, this also sucks as a Ham Vehicle.. I had to remove the rear bumper just to mount the antennas thru the license plate cutout.
The Hash is so bad, HF mobiling is possible only when I am stopped. VHF and UHF are fine.. HF is bad when the vehicle is in motion. It is related to the charging system and being that it has 4-5 computers, it would take a dump truck load of ferrites to clear it up if at all. Richy N2ZD
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by N0AH on June 6, 2006
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SEE, I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT FEELS THE CHOICE OF RIG IS A (THEE) FACTOR BESIDES ALL OF THESE 6 WEEK LONG CONVERSION CHICKEN SACRIFICES SUGGESTED!!!!!!
""RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do? Reply
by AH6RR on June 5, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I have a Dodge Dakoda (1995) and the ignition noise is S-9 until I push the nosie blanker on my TS-440 then it's gone. I installed it in a ford ranger and the noise would go away also, the IC-706 MKII would not touch it at all.
Get a TS-440S and no more noise.
Roland AH6RR""
ROLAND, THANK YOU-
73 PAUL N0AH
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by K7PEH on June 6, 2006
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>>>SEE, I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT FEELS THE CHOICE OF RIG IS A (THEE) FACTOR <<<<
When Paul (N0AH) made that statement, I thought that it applies very well, both to the rig and the rig.
The rig, being the transceiver, and the rig, being the vehicle. Well, I suppose the term "rig" is more often considered the nom d'usage for "truck".
But it is clear that picking both is important and I am wondering how many hams purposely buy a vehicle to support their mobile ham radio needs. Personally, I think a pickup truck is a perfect "pick" and I have been lucky to have virtually no noise problems with my IC-706MKIIG. One thing I like about a truck is that there is lots of metal to use as a counterpoise and it is fairly easy to snake wires to and fro. And, I have a crew cab without a crew. Meaning, lots of room to store equipment in the rear.
But, as I have said before, the truck must be black to get the best propagation and lowest noise.
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by KE4RQ on June 6, 2006
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I am troubleshooting a Tundra 2002/FT-900/ Little Tarheel II installation. There is no noise with the ignition ON and the engine OFF. When the engine is ON, the noise is S3-5; the FT-900 Noise Blanker does little good. There is also no noise with the engine ON and the antennal disconnected.
I've bonded the hood, tailpipe, and the truck bed to the frame. Power lines (positive and negative) are run directly to the battery.
I envy you guys who have no problems, but I'm not giving up. Next steps: adding DX Engineering beads to the plug wires. I'm hoping that the copper foil on the COP's (see K0GB.com) is not needed, but if it is, I'll do it. It's a lot cheaper than buying a new rig (like the TS-480).
Amateur radio, for me at least, is fixing things like this. I've learned a great deal about the hobby through this experience.
73,
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by K7PEH on June 6, 2006
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Noise blanker...
I know that most of the readers already know this but I think it deserves repeating.
A noise blanker is designed to block noise spikes (rapid rise and fall times) but it does not do much good for wide "hash" type of RF noise. Knowing what type of noise you have is always useful data in trying to find solutions to solve the problem.
Unfortunately, I think that a lot of the noise generated by modern vehicles is of the RF hash style (computers, etc.) and the NB is not useful there. This is where filters and grounding such as Alan (K0BG) describes on his web site is important in resolving the noise problem.
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by AB2MH on June 6, 2006
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AH6RR wrote:
>I have a Dodge Dakoda (1995) and the ignition noise
>is S-9 until I push the nosie blanker on my TS-440
>then it's gone.
While that's very nice (I have a TS-440S as well that I use at home), that's only curing the symptoms.
I would much rather cure the noise at the source.
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by WI7B on June 6, 2006
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K7PEH makes a good point. Much of the RF hash that noise blankers can't take out derives from the onboard microprocessors in the engine compartment.
I know this is sacrireligous (especially today 666), but DON'T run your power cables into the engine compartment and battery. Leave them on the passenger side of the RF barrier-firewall. Use a cigarette lighter/ext. power hook-up. See what happens.
73,
---* Ken
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by WN7T on June 6, 2006
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I have 2006 Toyota Tacoma 4WD DCB SB. I installed a IC-7000 in it with a MA1000b amp and Sure power smart-solenoid (200 Amp) linked second battery right next to the amp/radios. I used #2 AWG wire, fused on each end, to run to the second battery from the primary one.
I have installed many #2 AWG Noco 8" flat, braided lug to lug ground bonding straps in all the usual places. These straps are cool because they have flat tinned copper lugs of the same width as the braid on each end with 3/8" stud holes. ICE sells some conductive grease through DX Engineering which works great to make a corrosion resistant electrical union between strap and car steel after machining off the paint around the drilled and tapped hole 3/8" in the frame/body etc. The exhaust pipes were grounded with the DX Engineering kits.
The truck uses COPs on each of its six glory holes. I had Flame Spray Inc. in San Diego, CA, flame spray a mixture of 85% Al 15% Zn onto the COP units. Each COP is bolted to the cylinder head with a factory 6 mm bolt to provide a "good" path to ground. The wiring harness from the computer to the COPs and fuel injectors was suppressed with type 31 split ferrites on each branch to each device (COPs & Injectors & Choke & Drive-by-Wire Throttle Body Stepper Motor).
Each lead into the air-bag/seat restraint detonation computer located inside the center arm rest were type 31 ferrite shielded.
The truck uses a composite material for the entire truck bed. I grounded/bonded the metal 1/4 panels around the composite bed to the frame (as well as the front 1/4 panels) and the front ARB winch bull bar front bumper.
The antenna is fed with a W8FMI UNUN provided by CWS Bytemark. The UNUN has two output impedance taps and these are selected remotely by a Kilovac K43R vacuum latching relay system I built (along with a DC/DC converter to provide the relay with 26 volt pulses). The entire UNUN/relay assembly is mounted directly at the base of the antenna.
The antenna is a Hi-Q 5-160 with a custom 5' lower mast section. The antenna is mounted on a 2" x 1" 304ss beam mounted inside the rear tow bar assembly with a cantilever support to the frame rail. The mount projects out on the driver's side about as far as the rear-view mirror. The antenna has fiberglass struts just below the coil to provide side load stability.
So far, the system is working well. There is some residual RFI noise. I am in the process of tracking it down. The main computer I/O leads and fuel pump wires are next.
The engine slows a little bit when drawing 100 amps at idle with the amp on. Aside from some taillight flickering which was quickly cured with some more #31 ferrites, the installation has been stable at full power (500 to 600 watts out). There has been no problem with RF causing problems with the vehicle's various electrical systems (unlike my old '96 Chevy Tahoe installation).
The tuning of the Hi-Q antenna is provided by use of a highly modified Ameritron SDC100 unit. The SDC100 was found to malfunction when exposed to a high RF environment, so the unit was stripped out of it's plastic case and the switches removed from the board. The unit was placed inside a cast Al box with an internal second bulkhead with feedthrough caps for all leads. There are a series of RF bypass and ferrite suppression stages inside the box. The LED is shielded with Al mesh screen. I also installed a PWM circuit to give the chioce of a slow speed setting when tuning. The SDC100 no longer malfunctions in a high RF field environment.
The internal magnetic reed switch installed at the Hi-Q factory was found to be of the wrong type, upon disassembly of the Hi-Q antenna. The device Charlie used is meant to be end-triggered, not side-triggered by the dual internal Neodymium magnets. I replaced the factory supplied reed switch with a side triggered unit. The count registry on the Hi-Q antenna's contactor position is now perfect every time from end to end of contactor travel. The antenna is still really twichty to tune dead on for a perfect match.
I use the Comet remote SWR cross needle meter to monitor the VSWR on the amp's output. By extremely happy coincidence, the meter head fits perfectly in the hole provided by Toyota in front of the stick shift below the radio/AC control stack. It looks really sweet lit up at night.
Primary use for this system is on 160 meters. It works very well here, by all reports on 1.992 MHz here in the NW USA.
If the RFI still does not go away after I get around to treating the compter's I/O leads and fuel pump, I will probably wrap det-cord around the car's computer and other onerous parts. A quick crank on a hell-box and the RFI will be ELIMINATED, baby!
73,
Paul WN7T
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by AA4PB on June 7, 2006
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Use a cigarette lighter/ext. power hook-up
------------------------------------------
But how does power get from the battery to your lighter socket? It goes thru the firewall and into the engine compartment, usually using smaller guage wire and many more connection points than you would use by running a dedicated wire. There is no reason to believe that using the ligher socket would eliminate noise unless you made a very poor dedicated power run.
Finding out if the noise is entering via the antenna or the power cable is easy. Just disconnect the antenna and see if the noise goes away. If it does then the noise is entering via the antenna or feed line. In the vast majority of cases noise from on-board computers, fuel pumps, and the ignition system does enter via the antenna rather than the power wiring.
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by WI7B on June 7, 2006
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It doesn't matter, not after WN7T's has spoken. I stand in utter awe of his Toyota truck, the effort he has made, and the practical results he has achieved.
73,
---* Ken
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by KE7AKS on June 7, 2006
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I had severe noise problems with a FORD 1990 ESCORT
that I wanted to run 10M in. I put a capacitor on the fan motor, and eliminated that problem. Ignition noise was not the - POP POP type you typically get from secondary ignition, so I put a piece of RG8U coax in using the center lead to the battery positive, and the shield to the battery negative. I used this for the power wire and, WOW the noise was much WORSE! I then found a metal brace under the dash, and ran a short 10 gauge wire to the NEGATIVE power wire and the radio case. 98 percent of all noise was gone, down to a useable level. The only time I hear drastic noise any more is while the windshield washers are pumping.
I dont know if it will help in your case, but the long positive wire running theough the noise compartment (engine) to the battery, was a real noise antenna in my case, and the shielded poewer did seem to solve the problem.
Even Diesel rigs have computer operated injectors and engine controls on the newer diesels, and I have heard my friends complain about RFI.
Many of the newer automobiles have filters on the power to the car stereo power, you may want to ask the guys at the Car Toys Stereo install shop, or where ever they install high end sound systems in your area for tips and insight to noise reduction.
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by K5MKE on June 9, 2006
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Hi All,
I have a '95 Ford F-150 (POS) pickup. I ran a length of RG-214 (double sheilded) from the battery (Center to +, sheilds to -) down past the ignition relay, hole through the flex fenderwell and down under the chassis and up through a bunghole in behind the right rear of the front seat. The + and - were attatched to the power wires for the Icom 706mkII-G. Unfortunatly, this setup didn't last long as the Icom draws more than 25 amps on transmit (despite WHAT Icom says it draws) and burnt up a ground wire in the ignition system.
So, I get some #6 stranded copper wire, again attatch to the + and - of the battery. Run wires through a 'plastic chase' to the aforementioned "bunghole" and in behind the aforementioned seat. I connect the Icom power wireing and this time add some #6 from the ground lug on the Icom to the bolt holding the seat down.
Voila', it powers up, but the noise level is 40/S9, even on 2 meter/70 cm FM!
Remove Icom from truck and use my battery powered RS-245 2m/70cm 'talkie' and forget ever using HF with this vehicle.
Send e-mail to FORD Motor Company inquiring and asking for "help" in getting service bulletins on motor and ignition noise problems. Ford's return e-mail only said, "Thank you for your interest in Ford motor cars, Have a nice day!"
Decided never to buy another Ford product and switch to Chevy panel vans.
Respectfully,
73,
"Buck"/K5-MKE
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by K1CJS on June 11, 2006
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"......DON'T run your power cables into the engine compartment and battery. Leave them on the passenger side of the RF barrier-firewall. Use a cigarette lighter/ext. power hook-up. See what happens."
This may work with a low powered VHF/UHF rig, but DO NOT TRY THIS WITH A HIGH POWER HF RIG! Under the 'see what happens' catagory, you may start a fire in the cigarette lighter plug or under the dashboard. You may end up replacing the under the dash wiring harness. You certainly won't get full power out of your rig.
The cigarette lighter pulls about ten amps, your rig will most likely pull more than that. Also, the cigarette lighter power plug just isn't designed to pass that much current without damage to the plug or the socket. A cigarette lighter plug is good for powering a handy-talkie or a CB, but nothing else. Also remember that the cigarette lighter plug fuse usually protects an interior light circuit as well and the fuse is a larger size to accomodate the lighter plug and the light circuit.
One trick seldom mentioned is to use a length of good RG-8 cable for the power connection. The center conductor will easily handle the rig power needs and the shielding will stop quite a bit of the RF from entering the positive power lead. Ground the shield at both ends of the cable.
Strip the shield away from the cable for a few inches for connection to the point on the fenderwall where the negative lead from the battery is connected. Leave a minimum length of center conductor for connection thru the fuse holder to the positive battery terminal. Connect the negative lead from the rig at the same point the cable shield ground connects inside the passenger compartment.
This may solve the RF problem without the possibility of a hefty repair bill for the car wiring harness.
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RE: Automotive Noise - WHICH NOISE BLANKER?
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by N3XFD on June 14, 2006
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Good thread. Anyone have a preference for a particular brand / model of noise blanker? I need one for my 1994 Toyota pickup to handle some alternator whine that's coming through my IC-2100 VHF rig.
73
N3XFD
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by K8KAS on June 15, 2006
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In my experience (15 years Automotive EMC and EMI Detroit OE's) 90% of the noise comes from the brush type DC fuel pump motor, FILTER the power leads at the tank. The other cure is simple grounding, body panels/ grounding of the rig to vehicle body/floor pan. I can not believe how many use the 20 foot coax shield and the 10 foot DC ground lead for an effective RF ground, this SUCKS, ground the rig with as short of a lead as you can use to the darn car floor pan/body. My 2 cents worth 73 Denny
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by K8KAS on June 15, 2006
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In my experience (15 years Automotive EMC and EMI Detroit OE's) 90% of the noise comes from the brush type DC fuel pump motor, FILTER the power leads at the tank. The other cure is simple grounding, body panels/ grounding of the rig to vehicle body/floor pan. I can not believe how many use the 20 foot coax shield and the 10 foot DC ground lead for an effective RF ground, this SUCKS, ground the rig with as short of a lead as you can use to the darn car floor pan/body. My 2 cents worth 73 Denny
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Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by KE4RQ on June 15, 2006
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Update on my 2002 Tundra. Adding the rf beads to the COP wires produced no change in the noise level. The noise is proportional to the engine RPM. The noise is highest on 20m and 17m; very little noise on the higher bands. On 40m, while the noise is at S0, I can still hearing the "popping".
I don't believe that adding beads to the injectors is going to do any good (with all apologies to W7NT). At this point, I'm going to focus on better (and more) bonding to reduce the noise that is coming from the engine compartment. I'm not sure if better grounding of the antenna (stake mount in the bed) would do any good but am going to double bond it to the bed and from the bed to the cab shell (where the rig is grounded).
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RE: Automotive Noise -- What Can We All Do?
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by KE7AKS on June 23, 2006
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I may have not made it very clear, the last time I posted to this article. The RG8U COAX FOR POWER LEAD was the trick finnaly that worked on my old 1990 Ford Escort. I ran it streight from the battery and it was the type with solid diaelectric, and stranded center conductor. It was the most flexible, still a bear to run. The GROUND INSIDE the car, via a # 10 or # 6 copper wire to a bracket under the dash was the MOST IMPORTANT connection. Even though the coax to the antenna is grounded, and the negative wire grounds inside the radio, the ground on the OUTSIDE SHIELD of the COAX, and on the INSIDE of the car, dropped at least 90 percent of the electrical noise to the radio. When I run the windshield washers it sounds like a buzz saw, but I can live with that.
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