Classic Rigs
from
Lou Giovannetti - KB2DHG
on
February 18, 2008
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I have been an Amateur Radio Operator for over 20 years and have been into radio way beyond...
To me radio was always magical and mysterious. I remember as a kid and SWL, I would hover over my Halicrafters receiver at all times of the day and night. The glow of the tubes in the wee hours of the night and waiting for that distant signal...
I collected all the radio catalogs like Lafayette, Heathkit and Henry radio. Dreaming about getting one of those wonderful transceivers. I love the way they looked! I especially loved the Collins and Drake lines. They were massive and impressive with their big knobs and dials, meters and heavy metal cases.
In my opinion, today's transceivers are far more sophisticated and compact but somewhere along the way they have lost that romance and look.
I also liked the advantage of being able to tweak my plate and load and I also feel that the older rigs had much better audio and power.
With the prices of these new transceivers today I find it hard to justify getting one when my vintage equipment is doing the same thing! There is an abundance of these classic rigs for sale all over. I just received the matching Drake T4B transmitter for my R4B receiver on eBay. It works great and fun to operate!
I also have a Yaesu Ft-101 with a D104 mic that is just wonderful. The signal reports and audio reports I get with that rig are great.
Yes, I am a big fan of boat anchors... The older rigs have a certain mystique and romance about them... it brings me back to a finer time of Ham Radio. The best thing about it is that purchasing and collecting this gear if very affordable!
My drake twins including the power supply cost me a total of $570. My Yaesu FT-101 was won on eBay for $183. These rigs are also easy to trouble shoot and repair...
Even if you have a modern transceiver, I recommend you getting an older rig just for the fun of it!
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by KU2US on February 18, 2008
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Yes-I agree with this post, that the old time radios hold that nostolgic mystique. You know you are operating a REAL radio, sitting in front of one of these baby's.. They may not have all of the bells and whistles of the newer rigs, but they are fun to operate and are rock solid. I have a hybrid Kenwood TS-520S with matching speaker, VFO and tuner, with the stock MC-50 desk mic. I have yet to hear a newer solid state rig equal or surpass my 520S in stock audio quality. These radios were built to last, easy to work on and VERY forgiving. Blow a 6146B, and you replace it by plugging a new one in. Blow a power circuit on a new rig, and SEE YA... Dont get me wrong, the newer rice boxes have the latest technology with DSP's, et.et..but with my added CW and SSB filters in my 520S, I really dont need a DSP. Just plug in the filters and go. Here is a run down in cost for my station: TS-520S mint condition $250.00, the external VFO $130.00, The matching speaker $45.00 and the matching antenna tuner $120.00..Thats a grand total of $545.00..What new rig can you buy for that? You cant even buy an Alinco DX-70T or DX-77! If the VFO goes kaputt, I buy another one and plug it in. If a VFO goes on a new rice box-get ready to pay $$$ to get it fixed. There is a place for both the new and vintage in ham radio. I am not knocking the new stuff, but it just seems to me that the vintage and hybrid rigs are built better, serviced easier, costs much less, and are REAL radios. Its your money!
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by ZENKI on February 18, 2008
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I think you right. I have a hybrid TS830S, if you can find me a modern radio that can beat its receiver in a convincing manner I would like to buy it. Likewise its transmitter in spectral IMD purity.
Its a very damning reflection on the Japanese designers that you cant buy any radio except for the IC7800 that will beat the pants off a humble TS830S that cost $600 in the 1980's.
While it might sound stupid, if Kenwood released this rig today with a 50 volt fet Amplifier, a DDS sythesizer and some roofing filters it would blow the pants off just about every current mega dollar radio.
We just being taken for suckers, DSP in most instances just means cheaper manufacturing with no real world RF improvement that can be measured in an convincing manner.
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by WX1F on February 18, 2008
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Yes..there's nothing like the smell of a burning resistor or primary winding of a high voltage transformer...especially when it occurs right at the instant you made contact with Hawaii from 1 land after 10 years of trying to complete your WAS..and the OM on the other end just said "Repeat??" Yep....nothing like it....!!!
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by RX1 on February 18, 2008
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"WX1F" "Yes..there's nothing like the smell of a burning resistor or primary winding of a high voltage transformer...especially when it occurs right at the instant you made contact with Hawaii from 1 land after 10 years of trying to complete your WAS..and the OM on the other end just said "Repeat??" Yep....nothing like it....!!!"
That reminds me of a friend of mine who's a home builder. He once said; "They sure don't make them like they used to." "Thank God!"
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by K5UJ on February 18, 2008
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I'm sorry to disagree but I don't miss the old rigs at all. they had a smaller set of features usually, poor frequency resolution and accuracy, they drifted, and in reality, had poor tx and rx audio because of the restricted bandwidth of their IFs due to the analog technology of the day. they did usually pack more power out compared to most of the 100 w. exciters in use now however and they were repairable for more hams.
I suspect that usually when hams pine for old rigs, they are really waxing nostalgic for the "old days" of ham radio in general and the boat anchor is a token of that to spark memories. I get into that a bit too, with an old Hallicrafters TO keyer I never use, but like to look at however you can get the same experience by simply thumbing through old QSTs and CQs. A bit of this goes a long way--overdoing the nostalgia thing is just a ticket to misery.
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by KF4HR on February 18, 2008
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After 40+ years in the hobby and always on a quest to to maintain the latest technology, the antique bug bit me last year. For some particular reason I developed a keen interest in Collins A-Line gear. I quickly learned the demand for this 50+ year old gear is very much alive and well in the amateur community. A transmit/receiver pair, depending on condition, can cost as much or more than a modern transceiver. There were only so many of these old marvels made and collectors seem to be quickly snatching them up.
But is the cost of this vintage gear really worth it? Like car collecting, it just depends on what it's worth to you.
There are a few drawbacks to owning older gear, namely lack of modern features (auto-notching filters, twin passband tuning, DSP, built in digital recorders, etc), but there is no mistaking the unique draw that older equipment has. Sitting in your shack on a snowy night with the tubes glowing, the smell that the old gear gives off, perhaps working some far off distant AM or CW station... well, for some of us, flipping on the switch to a modern rig just doesn't provide the same appeal.
And there's something interesting I've run across about the older tube gear too. Parts for 70's, 80's, and even some 90's vintage solid state transceivers have been drying up for awhile now; particularly IC's, display components, etc. The parts just aren't being manufactured anymore. This turns owners of this defective gear into junk yard scroungers, or the gear ends up being used as a door stop, or it gets sold off for parts.
But think about it. After your modern transceiver becomes superceded by the next model, how long do you expect the manufacturer to continue to stock its parts? The answer of course is, it's just a matter of time before certain parts are no longer available.
On the other hand, older tube gear continues to enjoy an abundance of parts availability, and some are even specializing in the restoration of this vintage equipment. And in many cases owners do the repairs and alignment their gear themselves. Let the average ham try doing that with his ProIII, FT-2000, or TS-2000! :^)
Bottom line, at least for some of us, it's interesting to have both new and vintage gear in the shack; perhaps just to compare and just enjoy the differences, and to maybe get a taste of what being a ham decades ago was like.
KF4HR
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by K3EY on February 18, 2008
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Even though I spent a few bucks on my Lamborghinio I prefer my rusty Ford Pinto. Yes the good old days when everyone lived 30 years less average--- everything was a lot harder to accomplish including getting your basic needs--- like hoping your deep well doesn’t dry running out of water, or how about tuning the TV antenna around to get a better picture in the 10 degree windy winter weather while your Father held up his hand in the window to tell you how which way to turn it and when to stop while your hands froze to the pipe. Oh-- and sewage systems that leeched out all over your back yard because there was no public sewage system. That smell brings back such sweet memories. Oh those were the romantic days----wait I’m sorry!! Maybe I need pills because my thinking is amiss---where’s my paxil?
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by G3LBS on February 18, 2008
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You can try to compromise by upgrading a boat anchor, keeping the front panel, but then the antique collectors will give you some stick.
W2/G3LBS
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by KD5SFK on February 18, 2008
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Pointless article/discussion. Everyone has an opinion and they're all right. C'mon eHam, you can do better!
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by NI0C on February 18, 2008
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I agree with K5UJ on this one.
As someone who actually owned and operated some of the boat anchors (long before they were known as boat anchors), I don't miss them.
As someone who worked with DSP in its infancy back in the mid 1970's, I know that when appropriate attention is paid to the A/D conversion and pre-sampling analog filter processes, DSP will run circles around conventional analog-only filtering.
The ham manufacturers (notably Elecraft and Ten Tec) are finally getting it right with their renewed emphasis on roofing filters and floating point A/D conversions.
The boat anchors are nice to look at and collect, but an Elecraft K3 will definitely outperform a Collins 75A4 (the dream receiver of fifty years ago).
73,
Chuck NI0C
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by KC8ZEV on February 18, 2008
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There is something about glowing tubes that hypnotizes hams. The heat radiated is also a huge plus for those who don't have a heater in the shack. Every now and then, I fire up the ole Swan 500.
I try not to push the old girl too hard, but she will still thump a watt or two!!! With that said, it is much EASIER to operate my Icom 718 than a vintage rig. Drift, filtering, noise, sensitivity.........the list goes on. Notice I didn't say the Icom 718 was BETTER. Using technology from yesteryear is a specialty in itself. Depending on band conditions, it can be a joy or a nightmare. The real trick is knowing what band conditions are best for vintage rig operation. That comes from experience.
73
KC8ZEV
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by WA2DTW on February 18, 2008
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When looking at an objective listing of receiver quality, the R390A still is very close to the top of the list. There is very little today that can beat it.
(or is heavier).
73
Steve WA2DTW
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by W2CZ on February 18, 2008
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Great post Lou, it's certainly easier to appreciate the art of radio when you understand how we've gotten to the point we are at now!
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by N2EY on February 18, 2008
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"I have a hybrid TS830S, if you can find me a modern radio that can beat its receiver in a convincing manner I would like to buy it."
Have you seen the Elecraft K3? Specs are now on the Sherwood Engineering website.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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by K0BG on February 18, 2008
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There used to be an old TV program called "Time Marches On". And so it does. You may wax nostalgic about those old radios, but I'd bet you wouldn't want to be living that age all over again? I certainly would not!
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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by G3LBS on February 18, 2008
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What we need are research hypothesis here -
'Owners of repairable boat anchors are more active than owners of knob-twiddling rigs'
'The novelty of a non-repairable rig wears off sooner than that of a repairable boat anchor'
'The more knobs on a rig the sooner it will be exchanged'
W2/G3LBS
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by K3EY on February 18, 2008
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"I have a hybrid TS830S, if you can find me a modern radio that can beat its receiver in a convincing manner I would like to buy it."
Have you seen the Elecraft K3? Specs are now on the Sherwood Engineering website.
73 de Jim, N2EY
--------------------------------------------
I bought THREE (3)TS830 radios when they were still being manufactured and I owned them for 15 years...yes great receiver. My PROIII blows the 830 away into space on all levels. I would never go back to a 830--- but you guys are more than welcome to live in the past if it makes you feel good. Looking forward is how I live my life. Oh---I do not worship at the Sherwood Alter where old radios are better on paper.
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by K4PDM on February 18, 2008
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I can't seem to stay away from classic rigs, although I buy them and then don't use them.
Part of what makes ham radio great is the fact that an IC-7800 can QSO with a Swan 350.
There's room for everyone and every interest.
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by ARRLBOOSTER on February 18, 2008
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I like to have a couple of the classic rigs around, as well as a new one. Yes, time does march on and is essential to stay current with knowledge. Having said that, hams are no different from motorheads who prefer the classic cars of yesterday.
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by K3AN on February 18, 2008
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There are multiple facets to our hobby for the same reason there are multiple flavors of ice cream.
Some people enjoy working every weekend on an old classic or antique car, but they probably wouldn't want to drive it to work in rush-hour traffic every day. Same with an old radio.
I check eBay and other ham ad sites to see what my original station (RME 4350A, Globe DSB-100) would cost me. But I'd rather spend my limited ham hobby money on another SGC autotuner to support the installation of a delta loop oriented at right angles to my existing one.
To each his own.
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by KL7AJ on February 18, 2008
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I always wanted a 57 Chevy, but the closest thing I've got is a Central Electronics 100V. About the same weight. :)
eric
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by WB9AUJ on February 18, 2008
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After reading the QST article about rebuilding the Drake power supplies, I am trying to save a few bucks and do that mod.
I just received a pair of 8122 tubes and plan to put my Hallicrafters SR-2000 back on the air.
I really like my Kenwood TS-480, but the "hollow" stare is great.
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by AE5I on February 18, 2008
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Very well said, Lou!
I was truly "infected" with a deep interest in radio in the late 50s and to me, there will always be something very appealing about a rig with incandescent dial lamps, analog tuning, tubes, a little bit of hum from the power supply and warmth from the tubes....
I don't know why, other than the fact that I think "windows of learning" open and close as we grow up, and some types of impressions that are made at times in our youth are just deeper and more permanent than things we learn later in life. I don't know why that it, but it seems to me to be the case.
I, like you, had all the catalogs from the big radio suppliers back then.... Allied, Lafayette, Heathkit, etc. I remember spending countless hours leafing back and forth through the pages of Drake 4 Line gear in the Allied catalog. I was a broadcast engineer long before becoming a ham, but when I passed the tests in '92, you can bet that the first rig I bought was a Drake TR-4! And yep, it was as great a rig as I always had dreamed that it would be.
These days, my main CW rig is a Drake C Line and my main phone rig is a Collins S Line. I know that a top-of-the-line TenTec will outperform them, but when it comes to "pleasure of operation", they have no equal, for me. I also have an SGC 2020 and an FT-897D and really like both rigs. They are quick to operate and fill a definite need at my station, but as you said, Lou, there's just something missing from modern rigs that the old boat anchors have. :-)
Ain't it great that this wonderful old gear can be had so cheaply these days? And when it comes to performance, the Drake C Line is still a lot of bang for the buck. I'd rather have one of those in a pileup than anything else.
Thanks again for the great article, Lou! Enjoy those tubes... :-)
73
Tom AE5I
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by VE6DRW on February 18, 2008
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Of course this topic is about opinion, as are most posted on forums. The point is I want my opinion to be heard. And by way of disclosure, I'm not some tottering old grandpa waxing poetic from my rocker; I design the latest Internet software for a living.
Let's be clear: ANY communication over HF - regardless of mode or equipment - is nostalgia. The serious carriers abandoned HF years ago.
I think Lou has it right. There is lots of great performance left in the old rigs - and some us us want to be more than just appliance operators. I can study a schematic, learn the effects of different values of resistance, capacitance, and inductance as I signal trace through a piece of gear. I can even change the original design. And as for features, when I look at my trusty Drake C line, I see:
Advanced Signal Processing
Band Stacking Registers
Memory Scan
Band Scan
Automatic Antenna Tuner
Voice and CW Keyers
All of these advanced features are possible through a sophisticated processing interface.
Its called the OPERATOR.
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by WB2WIK on February 18, 2008
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Although I don't think an FT-101 will ever be a "classic," rigs of yesteryear are useful, fun and nostalgic for sure.
A lot of them can be had very cheaply, making them perfect for newbies, youngsters with little cash, et al. The true classic boat anchors are already selling for more than they cost when they were new and aren't such great deals, except for "collectors:" The same kind of people who buy '55 T-birds and such. The value of some of these already precious items will likely continue to increase provided the goods are in perfect condition.
There are a few older rigs that actually work better for their application than anything manufactured today -- especially if you're an AM enthusiast. Nothing on the market today like a KW-1, or even a DX-100.
WB2WIK/6
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by N8ES on February 18, 2008
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Well, having cut my teeth on a Knight Kit T-150 with a Hallicrafters Receiver, I know how things can go wrong. But let's face it...they go wrong with the new rigs too. I now have some older gear, TS-820s, KWM-2A, T-150 and several Hallicrafters rcvrs., AND an Icom 756 Pro. I also like to retore old cars and have a '64 Chev. Impala SS I'm working on. I bring that up because I compare the radios to the cars. The old ones when they break down, you CAN work on them and fix them. The new ones, unless you work in the electronics field (or are gifted) are throw aways or you send them to someone for a hefty bill.
I also think the older rigs made better operator's and not just "appliance operators".
Again,just my opinion, everyone has one.73, good DX. Jim
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by KA4KOE on February 18, 2008
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New rigs do nothing for me. I had an Icom IC-756PRO which had, hands down, the worst receiver I have ever experienced. Lots of 3rd order intermod on the upper bands, ie hearing shortwave in the middle of 15 and 10m is WRONG by any standard. Also, the build construction is still reminiscent of the plastic throwaway VCR....YECK. Throwing lots of digital goodies on top of a poor receiver chain is bad bad bad.
Anything new I get will probably come from Tennessee.
Current shack???
TS-940S this is my new rig!
TS-700a
TS-600
Collins R388/51J-3
The new stuff from the big 3 just isn't there. I think Kenwood is totally out of the ham HF market. When's the last time they came out with a new HF rig????
Philip
KA4KOE
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by WA1RNE on February 18, 2008
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BoatAnchors and classic rigs shouldn't be looked upon negatively because they don't have the performance features of today's rigs. I believe that hams are drawn to them because they take you back to a different era in ham radio - one that some hams didn't get to experience because of their young age.
For me, operating an AM Boatanchors takes me back to a day when SSB was the defacto HF voice mode but it was still in wide use.
But as WB2WIK said, "There are a few older rigs that actually work better for their application than anything manufactured today -- especially if you're an AM enthusiast. Nothing on the market today like a KW-1, or even a DX-100."
I totally agree......I use a 32V3 on AM and there's nothing like it today that's DSP equipped.
One doesn't have to have a receiver with auto-notching and roofing filters to have fun on the bands.
....WA1RNE
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by KC6WGN on February 18, 2008
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Great article,some disagree and some agree. I loved boat anchor radio,lets just enjoyed the hobby of radio amateur. thanks for the article...73s
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by VE3TMT on February 18, 2008
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"While it might sound stupid, if Kenwood released this rig today with a 50 volt FET Amplifier, a DDS synthesizer and some roofing filters it would blow the pants off just about every current mega dollar radio."
Kenwood, are you listening??
I have to agree. I have always been a Kenwood fan and have had in the shack at one time or another a 520, 820, 830, and five 850's. Even the older ones are hard to surpass in receiver performance. And as other posters have mentioned, easy to work on should something head south.
Max
VE3TMT
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by WB8YYY on February 18, 2008
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Certainly it is enjoyable to own and operate a vintage rig. This includes the effort to keep the treasure healthy after restoration. I can't see the time and space to maintain too many boatanchors, but I confess to having one that I use occasionally.
To some, a 5 or 6-band boat anchor is enough ham radio. Others of us enjoy having 10 bands and better close-in rejection (when the bands are crowded with signals).
Enjoy what you have, and if its good enough then you yourself don't need to buy the present technology (or nice stuff that is 10-20 years old).
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by VE3TMT on February 18, 2008
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"The boat anchors are nice to look at and collect, but an Elecraft K3 will definitely outperform a Collins 75A4 (the dream receiver of fifty years ago)."
Do ya think??
Not that I would call a TS830 a boat-anchor, but I did have the chance to run one side by side with a 706MKIIG (ala DSP) during Field Day. Even with a narrow filter in the 706, it couldn't even come close to the 830 on 40m CW.
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by K7TEM on February 18, 2008
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Is this a joke or what. I had a TS-520 brand new in the 70's it was a weak radio then. I'm sorry but need a band switch replaced and see how neat your old radio is. I have been a ham for 45 years and like the new rigs the rx/tx are so superior to the old ones you can't compare them. My first rig was a DX-40 and a Gonset GR-212 some old junk. Tried many 75A series rigs until the A4 they were crap by todays standards. Need a dial for a 75A4 and look at $400 buck now tell me how cheap it is to keep that stuff running. Oh well just keep cranking your car and going to the outhouse. Jim
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by N6AJR on February 18, 2008
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I've lots of the old stuff, sold most of them , several swan three driftys, a couple of 101e's and 101 ee's, a collins 75-A4, some hallicrafters and hammerlund recievers , and lots of old sweep tube amps .
I did keep the ft 101 zd with external vfo, but I prefer the new stuff.
the current shack mobile is ft 857 D ( 2 of them for the cars) and an ft 847 in the truck, in th shack everything from a scout, a pegasus, to an orion and also a 746 pro and a ts 2000 .
I like the ability to use the computer to log with the radios and would be lost with out my orion/ alpha 87 A combo in contests. it makes a run dooable.
thats my bag yours may be different.
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by VE6LDS on February 18, 2008
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I got my ticket on my 51st birthday but I can remember reading the catalogs as a teenager and dreaming of the day I could afford some of that wonderful Collins gear. It turns out that Collins gear has appreciated to the point of becoming that wonder element unobtanium.
If I could afford it and had the land my dream station would be a Collins A-line along with the linear that they used to make that was built into the pedstal of a desk. My tower would be the 112 foot rotating Big Bertha and my concession to modern technology would be a stack of Steppir Monstirs on the Big Bertha and maybe an LPDA right on top for UHF/VHF.
Add my grandchildren visiting grandpa's radio station.
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by KD2E on February 18, 2008
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Well, a TS520, or 830 are older rigs, but I don't think they are boatanchors. They are old rigs, but they don't have that 'magic' about them the author eludes to.
An old TR4, or SB102, or KWM2 does have that mystique.
I also have to note that if someone had a 756Pro that was the worst receiver he ever heard, it had a problem!
Also, When it was made, the TS520 was a supurb rig. That is why the letters to follow "rig hr is SB..." soon changed to "rig hr is TS..."
Too many people missed the point of this article. Nobody said an old tube rig has all the specs of today's latest....just that smelling dust on tubes, and the ghostly orange tube glow, and vertical undamped plate current meter of an old TR4C cannot be matched by pushing the menu button, and searching for the noise blanker on an FT897D.
...Dave
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by W8KQE on February 18, 2008
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I can relate to your post! I think that if you 'came of age' in this hobby during that 'boat anchor era' (70's and prior), you probably appreciate the tube rigs of 'yesteryear', and how exciting and 'exclusive' it was to be able to work another distant station via wireless back then (to some, currently, the impact has been lost a bit because of the advent of cellphones and the net). As a 'newly minted Ham' and teenager back in the 70's, I too, remember the thrill of looking through the Heathkit, Lafayette, and Radio Shack catalogs. I probably had more fun with my first 'real rig', a Heathkit HW-16 and matching HG-10 VFO, running into attic dipoles, than i'm having now. Not to say modern rigs are not fascinating as well. I still marvel at the sight of an Icom 756 Pro3 or IC-7800 with the way-cool built-in color bandscope... 'gadget guru heaven'! I do miss adjusting the 'grid' and 'plate' levels on my old FT-101EX though! And going back even more, I can only imagine the thrill of operating some of those 1940's and 50's AM boat anchors when AM was king!
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N2EY on February 18, 2008
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"When looking at an objective listing of receiver quality, the R390A still is very close to the top of the list. There is very little today that can beat it."
Well, that depends how you define "quality" in a receiver.
For sensitivity, dynamic range, lack of spurs, stability and maintainability, a good '390A is right up there with the best of them.
But you have a very fast tuning rate, very limited choice of selectivity options, and some other limitations. And a good 390A isn't cheap. Or small.
Perhaps the biggest limitation is that the '390A can't transceive. That's fine if you're into separate tx and rx, but if you like to contest even casually you'll get really tired of zerobeating.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N9DG on February 18, 2008
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KD2E: "Well, a TS520, or 830 are older rigs, but I don't think they are boatanchors. They are old rigs, but they don't have tKD2E: "Well, a TS520, or 830 are older rigs, but I don't think they are boatanchors. They are old rigs, but they don't have that 'magic' about them the author eludes to."
Actually I think this 'magic (nostalgic) age' is really a sliding window in time. The early to mid 70's gear is now coming into that 'window' as the radios from the early 50's are beginning to slide out of it. This is not a new phenomenon, nor is is unique to ham radio gear. It usually boils down to people being 30-50 years older and having financial resources enough to buy the radios (or other items) that they could only dream about when they were young. Or else a desire to 'recapture' the past and rebuild their first stations. So it is just a matter of time before these same memories of 'magic' will be applied to the gear that is available new today.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N2UGB on February 18, 2008
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I suspect a "classic rig" is in the mind of the beholder. Just as "beauty" is in the eye of the beholder. Suppose it depends on what you intend to do with the thing. As a very casual, non-competitve, non-dx'er, with only a hank of wire thrown out the window, my old Kenwood hybrid transceivers serve me on cw well enough. Sort of like the way they look, too.
Guess if I intended to be a 'super-station', I would have to go with something more contemporary. And not just the transceiver. Also a question of available cash, too.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by KI4YMD on February 18, 2008
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Glowing tubes eh?
Here is an idea. Next hamfest pick up a few tubes and somehow power them on a base to provide that glowing
sensation. I would not mind doing that myself. Possible?
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Classic Rigs
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by K5BZH on February 18, 2008
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I think what most of us miss is the culture of yesteryear. Hams seemed to know more about their equipment. We built more things ourselves.
Some of the vintage radios are pretty decent, a R-390A is a fantastic receiver. It still falls behind in such things as frequency stability.
I loved being able to sit down in front of a radio I had never used and pretty well understand how to use it. Today's menu driven radios, like an Icom-7000 drive me nuts at times.
On the other today's radio walks on top of most of yesteryear's radios. They exhibit fantastic stability, the display tells you the frequency in cycles. Tuning resolution? The fantastic R-390A was 100 KC per revolution. For CW many have QSK that we only dreamed of having in the fifties.
The price of a radio today is unreal. Look at what $1000 to $1500 buys today. The radios in the fifties were rather expensive, yep, you have to equate the value of yesteryear's money too to make a comparison.
Like others, I still like playing with the old stuff, it is a lot of fun. The truth is today's radios work better. I still miss the culture.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N4KZ on February 18, 2008
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I've been licensed and active since 1969. Boat anchors are very nice to look at and reflect on the past. But use them? No thanks. Most modern rigs run circles around them. One exception, as already noted, was the receiver section of the Kenwood TS-830S. I had one of the first in the U.S. and its receiver was topnotch by anyone's standard then or now. A local could be parked 2 kHz away from my frequency on CW and I would never know it. Its front end was that good.
73, Dave, N4KZ
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by W5ESE on February 18, 2008
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I agree with K5BZH.
The equipment has never been better, in my experience.
Or as affordable as today.
I bought a Kenwood TS-520 in about 1977. It's list
price was $629. Using the inflation calculator at:
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl
That translates to $2,152.11 in today's money.
What can you get for your $2,152.11 today?
o Ten-Tec Jupiter with a built-in autotuner - $1849
o Icom 746 Pro - $1749.95
o Yaesu FT-950 - $1840.00
o Kenwood TS2000X - $2099.95
o Elecraft K3 - 2,039.95
or for a bit more money, you can step up to
an Omni VII or 756 ProIII.
Would I prefer my old 5 BAND Kenwood TS520 compare
to a K3?
NO WAY!!
I enjoy my old stuff, too, but I like to keep it in
proper perspective.
I've also learned, after 31 years in the hobby,
that it's possible to have alot of fun even with
very modest equipment. So enjoy the hobby with
whatever radio graces your operating table.
73
Scott
W5ESE
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by NI0C on February 18, 2008
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KD2E wrote: "Too many people missed the point of this article. Nobody said an old tube rig has all the specs of today's latest....just that smelling dust on tubes, and the ghostly orange tube glow, and vertical undamped plate current meter of an old TR4C cannot be matched by pushing the menu button, and searching for the noise blanker on an FT897D."
It seems you are comparing apples and oranges. Pushing a menu button and searching for the noise blanker function is part of actually operating a radio, while sniffing the tube dust and going into a trance staring at the filaments is merely experiencing the ambience of the radio.
73,
Chuck NI0C
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by K7BAB on February 18, 2008
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I first got involved with electronics in 1958 when I “inherited” my father’s Heathkit “Hi-Fi;” a W-5M, WP-2, FM -1 and a 12” RCA speaker on a baffle board when he bought a Scott 299 amp and 330C tuner. I would never want to go back to those days again. Digital audio and CD’s beat the pants off studio Ampex’s I recall running half-inch tape at 15 IPS! This is progress!
My father had a Collins’ “S” Line (32s3 and 75s3 w/ 200 KC filter), nothing better in its day! I run a beat up second-hand Kenwood TS-430s that I am utterly fascinated with, and it runs rings around the S Line; not too shabby for a rig put in service in 1985. I have the service manual and have had it apart numerous times just to “look around” or make some adjustments and take some readings.
My first computer was an IBM XT (640KB RAM, CGA graphics and a 20MB HDD) that I found in the trash room of my building. Was I intimidated? You bet! But I got all the computer books I could from the library and read them on the train to and from work and even in the bathroom at work until I got an idea of what I was doing. I was fascinated by it, never even being near a computer! I see XT’s in old movies and remember mine – but would never want to go back to using one.
There are certain aspects of the new rigs that are intimidating, as I am sure those new-fangled audions were to my grandfather’s generation, and SSB was to my father’s generation. As I recall, hams that did a lot of their own repairs had a home shop with a ‘scope, VTVM, signal generator, frequency meter (probably a BC 221) and a lot of home brew gadgets that helped them.
Just because a rig has tubes does not mean that it is any easier to fix. Try to track down an intermittent capacitor or a carbonized switch or tube socket! Tubes begin to deteriorate early into their service life and drift out of alignment; even changing a tube in a critical circuit could require an alignment touch up.
I really enjoy talking with the “old timers” and reminiscing about vintage gear; be it ham, Hi-Fi or just stuff in general – a lot of my friends are retired tech people.
As someone previously intimated, the nostalgia is for the camaraderie that the much smaller ham community had decades ago and not necessarily for the equipment of that era.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by W7ETA on February 18, 2008
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"In my opinion, today's transceivers are far more sophisticated and compact but somewhere along the way they have lost that romance and look."
Guess if you don't like the glow of hollow state, then you shouldn't be buying anything that glows in the dark.
That is what is nice about ham radio, so many different ways to have FUN while playin radio.
Whenever I turn on my C-line, I smile. But, if I'm chasing a DXpedetion, I want something with point and shoot.
So, I have both types of rigs and have FUN with both types.
73
Bob
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by W6TH on February 18, 2008
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.
I must admit these new rice boxes are much better for quick and dirty operation, but never missed a single day that I did not have more fun and enjoyment from the use of my Armstrong regenerative receiver.
P.S. Armstrong regenerative receiver, never used mobile, one advantage for the new rice boxes.
.:
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AC7DX on February 18, 2008
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I fondly remember my first rig at the age of 14, Heathkit AT1 and Hallicrafters S-40B. then the Viking Ranger, SX111, Halicrafter HT37,,BC610 and R390 and a 3 curtin Rombic. Miss those days every now and then. The lights and the smell :-) Times change and happy to have been there and now.
73
Ron
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by WB2WIK on February 18, 2008
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Funny how different stuff appeals to different people.
I like some old stuff. The 75A4 does a good job and is quite versatile without being terribly heavy or large. In fact, for a 50+ year-old design, it barely sips power: 85W total power consumption from the AC line, less than 1 Arms. Hell of a receiver for a piece of gear consuming less power than my bedside lamp.
An R390A, on the other hand, is much heavier, doesn't include a product detector, and is a real pain to tune around with. I never liked the R390A at all -- in fact, I sold a "mint" condition one a few years back and don't miss it in the slightest.
I'd take a 75A4 over an R390A for amateur operation in a split second -- no comparison.
Of course, then, the 75A is not general-coverage...which I don't care about at all.
Different strokes, I guess...
WB2WIK/6
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by W9PMZ on February 18, 2008
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"I must admit these new rice boxes are much better for quick and dirty operation, but never missed a single day that I did not have more fun and enjoyment from the use of my Armstrong regenerative receiver."
I thought you would have missed your rotary spark gap transmitter..........
73,
Carl - W9PMZ
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by RADIOROY on February 18, 2008
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I just acquired an old ft 101b, and its fun to play around with. I do get very good audio reports from it too. But when serious ,I use my old ts 430 (have two of them) and love them to death. I love to ragchew, so I do not need the greatest and latest. Besides, I have a lot less invested than most. Still having fun!!!!!!!!
73 de W5ROY master control for eastern new mexico storm spotters.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by W4LGH on February 18, 2008
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Well I think everyone on here knows how I feel about Vintage equipment! Now I am not saying its all great stuff. Just like the new stuff, there was a lot of junk made in the yester-years. However that were some serious equipment made as well.
My personal favorite is Drake equipment. Collins is also a big favorite of many, and a lot of the old Heathkit stuff holds a lot of hearts near and dear.
I have always said that an old Heathkit SB-200 is one of the best buys out there. Simple design, and they will run forever, if taken care of. The SB-220 is also a good buy, but not the deal you can find 200's for.
There are many other brands that keep peoples attention as well, way to many to list. I run my Drake 4B line on a daily basis, and still have a blast when working DX.
If you haven't tried some the vintage equipment, you really need to look into it. Some nice stuff can be had for very little money, and as its been said over and over, nothing like the smell of the tubes, and the glow factor is nice too! Especially in a dim lit shack!!
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com
PS: Still have the SPG Vintage net on Sunday's..come join it! More info on my website!
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N7YA on February 18, 2008
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I have an oldER rig, the FT757gx from the mid 80's...not exactly a boat anchor, but certainly not new. The Rx leaves a little to be desired, the rejection is rough even with all filters going, but its a tough old workhorse, i put it through hell during contests and pileups...no amp, i have a decent tuner, it does great for me, but i would really like a new rig.
I have been looking at the K3 and really like it, I also hear great things about the PROIII, some of them in this thread...and of course, i would love to find one of those Big Gun superstation 5-figure rigs in my shack, but my record sales havent been THAT good! I started on an old Galaxy V tube rig back in 83, it was a boat anchor in every sense...and like everyone else here describes about old rigs, it had serious punch, but bad isolation on frequency, the Rx was ok but thats about it, 5 bands and had a real harmonic issue.
To be honest, i enjoyed using that old rig, it was what i cut my DX teeth with. But i prefer modern rigs, they do so much more due to lessons learned over the last 100 years of building and designing radios.
And i would like to address this "appliance operator" nonsense...if old rigs were "real ham radio", and having a new rig makes one an "appliance operator"...doesnt that sound a little insecure? maybe waxing too nostalgic? Perhaps you havent sat down in front of one of these huge super-modern rigs yet, i bet you would be grabbing to manual just to find what many of these buttons, bells and whistles do. You have to orchestrate your actions to make it do various functions...but there are very few functions that it cant do. Talk about simple, my old Galaxy had maybe 8 knobs on it total...Granted, boatanchors require contant babysitting and care to operate efficiently, and those who love them are willing to do this nightly, but please dont talk down to people who would prefer modern rigs...a rig is a rig, it serves one basic purpose, to talk to other rigs...and that other rig can be a boat anchor and i would be just as happy. I also wouldnt judge the other guy for his choice of rig considering how unimportant it really is. You like what you like. The log entry is more my concern.
The key to making ANY rig perform better is not the rig, but the operator...your skill on the air, and command of the gear is what determines a good ham...some guitar players like brand new guitars, other guys prefer the pre-CBS Fender Strats, its all preference, the player is what will make it sound good, the instrument is there to provide the tones and features the user needs to do the particular thing they like to do, and these devices are selected by the individual for that reason, you go get what you need to do what you need it to do. And like old rigs, old guitars, old guns, old cars...all have a charm, appeal and value that you likely wont find in new stuff, but it also comes with its limitations and problems. Simply writing off another fully licensed ham (who is a good guy and doesnt abuse his privileges)just for the gear he uses, or the license class he has, or where he's from, etc...is an act of futility and exposure of ones own personal insecurities and maybe even loneliness. If anything, its just not accurate or cool, it doesnt make friends, and if you became a ham to make friends and have fun playing with radios....then what happened along the way?
Any rig you want to use on the air is great, i love the look and feel of the old boatanchors, but i like the performance and features of modern rigs a little bit more...im a good ham, i never QRM a frequency, i always check to see if the spot is clear before calling CQ, i do all the right things that i signed on the dotted line promising to uphold...im a good man, i suspect many of you are too, ive met a couple of you personally or on the air and can say that with confidence. This is the true importance, your rig choice is not. as long as you keep it clean and operating efficiently, enjoy.
To summarize, You may hear me with a new K3 one of these days...give me a call, i will promise you a good qso.
73...Adam, N7YA
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by ONAIR on February 18, 2008
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There was something about the warmth and simplicity of those old tube rigs. I remember staying up late into the wee hours of the mornings just watching those tubes glow, and trying to fish a distant signal out of the noise, while hoping they'd hear my reply. Back in the 60s, tubes were king and the catalogues were filled with page after page of these awesome looking radios, some just a chasis with no cover! Todays radios far surpass those old rigs on performance, but sometimes using just a simple radio can be far more thrilling than playing with a modern rig that is about as simple to operate as a cell phone.
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by WD9FUM on February 18, 2008
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I still have my first receiver, a Hallicrafters S-40. I also have the Drake Twins that were just a dream when I was a kid. There is truly a touch of magic in those 'hollow state' radios. While they do have their quirks, they're a lot of fun to operate. They also keep the shack warm!
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by VE1IDX on February 18, 2008
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I love my Kenwood TS-820S. I picked it up two years ago at a hamfest. It was in mint condx as was the VFO-820 and MC-50 that came with it.No dust inside and it had the factory original 2001A tubes that still put out full power.I managed to pick up a mint AT-200 and a mint SP-820 for it also.I really enjoy using it on the air.It has MUCH better filters than my FT-857.On a crowded band it shines. I always get great audio reports from it.I wanted one since they first came out and finally got a great rig after 28 years of waiting.The new rigs may have a lot to offer but the TS-820S has something they can NEVER offer. Class.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by K7PEH on February 18, 2008
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I am in the process of cleaning the cobwebs out of my Hammarlund HQ-170A that I bought two years ago and for two years it has been sitting in the garage. I owned an HQ-170AC back in 1965 to 1968 and I sold it for tuition money needed for my junior year in college (I had already been off the air for almost two years so this was not a big sacrafice).
But, there is no way I would trade my current Pro III or any other modern rig for the likes of something that is almost 50 years old. Buying the HQ-170A was a pure nostalgia thing and nothing more.
Back when I was a senior in high school my mom bought herself a new car, a 1965 Pontiac GTO with the 3 two-barrel carbs and the big 389 engine. So, the summer before college, I got to drive around in a hot car (red with a black top). And, this is the car that my little sister had going through high-school.
So, a few years ago, my sister had an opportunity to buy herself a totally restored 1965 GTO just like the one we had back in 1965. It cost her $12,000 which was a bit more then the original price of $3300. It was really funny when she brought it by to show it to me when she said that it only had AM radio and it wasn't very good (but, it was absolutely stock). Also, it did not have air conditioning which was a luxury option back in those days.
After driving it around her home town of Lake Havasu, Arizona, she chose to sell it. It did not drive very well, the gas it took was hard to get, and it did not have FM radio let alone a CD player, and it most importantly did not have air conditioning to deal with the 120 degree summer days. She did make a nice profit, I think she sold it to someone in LA for about $16,000.
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by WB0CJB on February 18, 2008
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I have a TS520S with matching VFO, speaker, and the DG-5 digital display.I also have a Drake TR-4C with matching VFO, MS4/AC4 (with the upgraded power supply board) and am in the process of refurbishing a Heathkit HW-100.Why do I have so many old radios??I mainly use the 520S but use the TR-4C occasionally.I love the glow of the TR-4C and find its audio quality to be better and the receiver better than the 520S though I'm sure the 520S could use a good alignment.All 3 radios are virtually bare bones as far as features go and does not require the op to commit to memory where a certain feature is on which screen or cause them to search for a certain button on the front panel.
My biggest opposition to todays radios? Yes they are smaller, lighter, and have more features but what do you have if the display goes out???A very expensive and worthless box of parts until you spend the bucks sending it to a repair facility.The surface mount devices are so small and difficult to work on that most hams who have little or no SMT experience or tools can't work on them.And with the no lead solder SMT soldering is a royal pain in the caboose.
I prefer the mechanical dials of the older radios.Yeah they may not be as accurate but how many times does one hang around on the last 1 kHz of a particular band???The older radios are much more forgiving of a high SWR with their Pi networks and use of the 6146 workhorse.
Yeah I may be crazy for hanging on to my old gear but when one of them quits and cannot be repaired I still have another radio that works just fine for me.I don't have to justify spending $2000 or more to the XYL either.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by K3JVB on February 19, 2008
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Well...
I figure why not have both? I use an Ft-990 for Hf and chasing dx. But I also use A swan Station complete for HF and VHf. Always liked the tubes, always will.
Will it compete toe to toe with the newer solid state stuff...in a word NO
But the older era station has a place in ham radio.
If nothing else..just to see how far we have come.
My Swan 500cx and the Mk-2 amp will still break a pile up on 20...but for contest work, it is a much tougher proposition. But it a great rag chew rig. And , for the most part, that is how I now use it.
Yes...just like looking at a '63 Stingray. They still look great. Drive it every day?? Maybe not !
73
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by K1CJS on February 19, 2008
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To each their own. It isn't a matter of right or wrong, nor is it a matter of better or worse. There is just something about operating that the modern rigs take away from. Can't hear clearly? Throw a switch!
The older rigs were more of a challenge to work with--trying to use the rig controls to sort the signals out of the noise instead of just letting the 'automatics' of modern rigs do it. When you used the older ones and made a contact like that, you came away with more of a feeling of accomplishment than you using todays rigs.
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by KG8JF on February 19, 2008
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Wow, this has turned out to be a very interesting thread. I was first licensed back in the late 50s, 57, I think. My Dad and I were hams together. We had a Viking Valiant along with an NC-300. What a set up that was. The VFO in the Valiant was pretty drifty and the designers must had stock in 6146s. There was five of these babies in the rig. And, the NC-300 was a grear receiver. This was right at the beginning days of Single Sideband and there was quite a controversy between AM folks and the SSB Donald Duckers. THe AM receivers were just not ready for SSB and people sounded like Donald Duck. "Not quite ready for prime time", as they would say today. I cannot even remember the antenna we used.....
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by K3EY on February 19, 2008
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The people who make the comment: What about if the screen goes out on your $3000 plastic box? You have to send it for repair.
Let me ask you __do you go to the doctor when you get a severe chest pain? Or do you let the wife take a peek?
Do you eat right exercise and live a calm moderate life taking as good of care of yourself as these radios you bought? That radio will probably last 150 years when in reality you are not going to come close in the duration.
If you want to drive a model T because it's romantic, go ahead. If you want to buy old junk believing it's somehow better and more fun to operate---great.
Lets not forget about ourselves and what is really important---like your very soul which last forever unlike any radio past or future made. That soul of yours has a destination, like it or not, believe it or not. Depending on you and you alone determines your soul’s destination. Are you thinking more about that radio and it’s duration and health or your own eternal soul....it's scary when reading some of these remarks and knowing the answer.
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by WC0V on February 19, 2008
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Licensed in 1958, first receiver was Knight Ocean Hopper, 3 tube regen. first REAL reciever, Hallicrafters S-38D. If you thought Swans drifted, you should try the S-38D. Saw one at a hamfest in the late 90s and was reaching for my wallet for a nostalgia buy when I remembered what a bad rig it was. Left my wallet untouched.
Dream rig early on: Collins KWM2A. used one when I was in USAF and member of AF MARS. Would buy one today except 1) very expensive, and 2) nasty to tune. "Advance the mic gain control until you see an indication of grid current." that means when your hand is within 0.05 inches of the mic gain knob, the grid current meter needle crashes against the stop!
Last classic rig, 775DSP - best receiver I have ever owned to that point. Current rig, Flexradio SDR1000. Can't imagine going back to the old days. It would seem like operating blindfolded.
73, Carl WC0V
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by G3LBS on February 19, 2008
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I don't get so much fun out of ham radio unless there's something wrong with the rig. It's better to travel hopefully than to arrive.
For me my policy is continuous improvement so sometimes I have to start from something simple like me or a boat anchor.
W2/G3LBS
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by KF4HR on February 19, 2008
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I'd like to think we all can take these postings with a grain of salt, but perhaps a few people can't. Reference the display issue; obviously someone missed the point.
Many problems with older gear can be fixed by its owner; swap a tube, fix a string on a slider display, replace a tube socket, replace the aging capacitors, do a simple alignment. Of course that's not the case with most modern gear. Owners of modern gear are typically at the mercy of a technician with the proper expertise, and rightfully so! Technology continues to moved on, and unfortunately (at least for the most part) amateur knowledge, skills, and repair procedures, haven't kept up - nor do most of us own or have access to the specialized test and repair equipment required. That's not to say anything is wrong with new radio gear, but to open eyes, there are advantages and disadvantages to both sides of this coin.
One might draw a parallel between operation vintage radio's to owning and driving a vintage sport car. Are vintage sports cars as good as the new sports cars? No way, not by a long shot! Then again, I sure wouldn't mind owning a '67 big block Corvette, regardless of its flaws. But obviously owning such a vintage car certainly wouldn't appeal to everyone.
Bottom line. New, old, or both; own and operate the gear you enjoy, and perhaps stop worrying so much about making your opinion, everyone else's.
KF4HR
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by K3EY on February 19, 2008
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KF4HR
With all due respect sir your very words show your total lack of understanding as to my point.
People worry about "things"---in this genre---radios old and new---if you really read this stuff posted you can see where the heart/soul lies.
Take it for what it is----a hell of a lot more than you can fathom, obviously.
I am done responding--- flame away if desired-- I give you no ammunition.
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by W4VR on February 19, 2008
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I've owned those old radios, when they were in their prime. I would not trade my modern-day equipment for those antiques. But, there is nothing wrong with people who enjoy collecting antiques, whether it be furniture, cars, radios or whatever.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by NI0C on February 19, 2008
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Regarding the question of repairability of current radios, I think that's more of an issue with the imported stuff.
Since I assembled my Elecraft K2 myself, and have access to the online reflector for help if I need it, I feel pretty confident in my ability to repair it.
Although I've never used their repair services, I've also heard great things about Ten Tec service.
73,
Chuck NI0C
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by KM5Z on February 19, 2008
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Heh - I've been a ham for only 3 years and I'm
hooked on them all. I really like my FT-897D, but
I also enjoy tubes. I bought an HW-101 from our
local club and I've really enjoyed applying the
collected audio and stability mods to it. Nothing
like the glow of the tubes.
73
Mike Yancey
KM5Z
Dallas, Texas
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by N0AH on February 19, 2008
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At the time it was rolled out, no radio before or after had the impact of the Kenwood TS-940.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N2EY on February 19, 2008
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K3EY writes: "Let me ask you __do you go to the doctor when you get a severe chest pain? Or do you let the wife take a peek?"
Well, if you're married to a cardiologist....
Point is, a severe chest pain could be life-and-death, but a failed ham rig isn't. So the chest pain gets the resources, while the ham rig has to wait.
K3EY: "Do you eat right exercise and live a calm moderate life taking as good of care of yourself as these radios you bought?"
I take better care of myself than I do my rigs. I live as "calm moderate" a life as possible under the circumstances.
Part of living that life is having a stress-reduction program, which includes ham radio. The man-cave (I mean, ham shack) is an important part of that.
K3EY: "That radio will probably last 150 years when in reality you are not going to come close in the duration."
Actually, that's probably not true unless you pack up the rig in a controlled environment and don't use it. Even then, some components will go bad simply from age.
One of the big pluses of many older rigs is that a ham with a little know-how, test gear and spare parts can keep them going indefinitely. That's not true of many newer rigs. Even if you have the $$ to send a newer rig away for repair, you lose the use of the rig for the time it's away, which can be weeks or months. And in some cases not only are the parts no longer made, but there are no practical substitutes. Custom displays and chips are one example.
K3EY: "If you want to drive a model T because it's romantic, go ahead."
There are actually hams on-the-air with rigs of Model T vintage, but most of what's being discussed here is much more recent. More like 1950s-1960s-1970s. A Collins S-line or Drake 4-line aren't Model T by any stretch of the imagination.
K3EY: "If you want to buy old junk believing it's somehow better and more fun to operate---great."
What do you consider "old junk"? Just being old does not make a rig "junk".
And which rig is "better" depends on what kind of operating you intend to do.
K3EY: "Lets not forget about ourselves and what is really important"
I agree! We should all care for that which cannot be replaced. That includes having things which make the quality of our lives better.
For a lot of hams, having a rig they understand, that they like to use, which they can fix and modify and enjoy is more important than having the latest "state of the art" rig. And for other hams, the reverse is true. As long as the rig meets FCC requirements and the ham doesn't spend the rent money on it, who cares?
K3EY: "---like your very soul which last forever unlike any radio past or future made. That soul of yours has a destination, like it or not, believe it or not. Depending on you and you alone determines your soul’s destination. Are you thinking more about that radio and it’s duration and health or your own eternal soul....it's scary when reading some of these remarks and knowing the answer."
What, exactly, do you mean? Will someone go to the bad place for using the "wrong" rig?
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by WB2WIK on February 19, 2008
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>RE: Classic Rigs Reply
by K3EY on February 19, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
The people who make the comment: What about if the screen goes out on your $3000 plastic box? You have to send it for repair.
Let me ask you __do you go to the doctor when you get a severe chest pain? Or do you let the wife take a peek?
Do you eat right exercise and live a calm moderate life taking as good of care of yourself as these radios you bought? That radio will probably last 150 years when in reality you are not going to come close in the duration.<
::I seriously doubt the rig will last 150 years. In fact, I doubt the LCD display will last more than 20 years, unless it's not used much: LCD displays have finite life; ditto goes for plasma and CRTs, and even LEDs and LVFs. Nothing outlasts a mechanical dial.
WB2WIK/6
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by KA4KOE on February 19, 2008
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I want a classic HF rig with a nixie tube digital display. Any recommendations?
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Classic Rigs
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by K0DCH on February 19, 2008
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I started out using a Viking Ranger and an NC300 (they were state of the art at the time.) I admit the the warm glow of tubes and the smell of hot dust is a pleasant memory.
However, I have no interest in going back to the analog technology of 50 years ago. Modern equipment is much more fun and offers a much greater array of operating options.
I suppose I could put some small, dusty light bulbs inside a perforated metal box and run it next to my 746Pro and have the best of both worlds. Or, maybe not.
Dave
K0DCH
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AF6AY on February 19, 2008
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KF4HR posted on February 19, 2008:
"I'd like to think we all can take these postings with a grain of salt, but perhaps a few people can't. Reference the display issue; obviously someone missed the point."
Heh heh heh...Folks get all upset when emotional NOSTALGIA issues are involved. :-)
Given that I've been around 'radios' innards for about 60 years, lots of others have totally forgotten what an absolute pain it is to re-string dial cord to get the 'feel' of tuning as it was originally. Or, to get an original 'white' plastic dial from its dirty yellow look it acquires from age and exposure to just oxygen in the air. I will agree that a nice worm-gear tuning assembly on an old ARC-5 or the conglomeration of gears and cams on an R-390 series receiver will last and last...and forget the CO$T of all those mechanicals in today's prices. :-) [offhand, I'd say the price of a NEW R-390 built today would be about ten grand in today's dollars if built like it was first designed in 1949 or so]
MECHANICAL things are more understandable to the amateur with limited exposure to things available to today's designers, hence their 'love' of the old stuff and boatanchor gear.
I've got some leftover numeric LCDs that traveled with me from Van Nuys, CA, and back in '74, enduring heat and cold and physical banging around. They still work FINE but the driver electronics (extremely low power) are more complex than just a wire to a 6.3 VAC filament line...yet modern wristwatches rely on similar LCDs driven by a single IC (my radio watch 'listens' for WWVB every night and sets itself automatically).
KF4HR: "Many problems with older gear can be fixed by its owner; swap a tube, fix a string on a slider display, replace a tube socket, replace the aging capacitors, do a simple alignment. Of course that's not the case with most modern gear. Owners of modern gear are typically at the mercy of a technician with the proper expertise, and rightfully so! Technology continues to moved on, and unfortunately (at least for the most part) amateur knowledge, skills, and repair procedures, haven't kept up - nor do most of us own or have access to the specialized test and repair equipment required. That's not to say anything is wrong with new radio gear, but to open eyes, there are advantages and disadvantages to both sides of this coin."
As one who has worked designing electronics (and 'radios') for decades, I'm NOT in the mood for spending most of my free time FIXING things. Vacuum tubes regularly burned out their filaments. Cheap electrolytics weren't built with the better life and materials as they are now. The MTBF of modern consumer electronics is so much GREATER than tube designs that its just no question about 'having to repair' modern electronics from electronic wear-out.
Physical damage, yes, but physical damage was also a problem for tube designs.
KF4HR: "One might draw a parallel between operation vintage radio's to owning and driving a vintage sport car."
This 'one' would NOT. As an owner and fixer-upper of a 1953 Austin-Healey (digital pix on request), it was a wonderful experience to DRIVE...everywhere in the fifties. It was a 'babe magnet' but was not good for making-out once parked. :-) It had one very redeeming feature radio-wise: An aluminum body that was an excellent ground plane for a shorty CB whip of 1959 vintage. But, that was THEN and this is NOW, this 'one' having changed his needs as well. Our 2005 Malibu MAXX suits our purpose very well NOW and drives better than the average four-seater, four-door on highways or on streets.
KF4HR: "Bottom line. New, old, or both; own and operate the gear you enjoy, and perhaps stop worrying so much about making your opinion, everyone else's."
What, and STOP all the Bragging Rights everyone has to post? :-)
I agree with you, though, and think everyone SHOULD do that, but we have the brand-conscious talking advertisements for various radio manufacturers who MUST have THEIR way be that of all...:-)
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AF6AY on February 19, 2008
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NI0C posted on February 18, 2008:
KD2E wrote: "Too many people missed the point of this article. Nobody said an old tube rig has all the specs of today's latest....just that smelling dust on tubes, and the ghostly orange tube glow, and vertical undamped plate current meter of an old TR4C cannot be matched by pushing the menu button, and searching for the noise blanker on an FT897D."
"It seems you are comparing apples and oranges. Pushing a menu button and searching for the noise blanker function is part of actually operating a radio, while sniffing the tube dust and going into a trance staring at the filaments is merely experiencing the ambience of the radio."
AMBIENCE! Gotta love that, Chuck! :-)
Oh, wow, the ambience of selenium stack rectifier odor, the burning of half-watt carbon comp resistors, the waxy smell of ceresin wax from tubulars, the tarry goop that drools out of overheated potted transformers (and all over the underside of a chassis)!
Up-scale restaurants do the ambiance thing in order to charge an arm and a leg for 'fancy food' and convince lots of diners that such ambiance makes their food 'taste better.' Same with radios...what one experienced as a youth when first impressed with 'radio' makes the old gear somehow 'work better' than the new designs. That was Zen, this is Tao.
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by KI4YMD on February 19, 2008
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Speaking of smell maybe someone can tell me where the smell comes from. I'm 33 yrs young. At the last ham fest it smelt as if I walked into my Great Grand-Parent's house. They have a few electronics. TV(1), phone, and radio.
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by KB2DHG on February 19, 2008
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I think some of you missunderstood my intent of this article...
I am not saying the older rigs are better than the newer rigs or to have any dibates about it. Basicly I just am passionate about the hobby and love all aspects of it. As a nastalga guy I like machines of old. and YES I also am a classic car buff!
You are right, driving my classic car is fun but I would never have it as a daly driver. I also own a 1909 Victrola wind up! Listing to a classic 78 rpm record on that can't come close to a CD of today! BUT I can appreciate where we were and where we are!
That also goes for my vintage ham radio gear...
My main rig is a Kenwood TS 430S and Icom 745 although these could be considered vintage rigs they are the most mordern I own. I do have an old EICO 723 transmitter and use it only for a goof! it is surly a pain in the butt to switch from transmit to receive but with it comes some enjoyment in the fact that this old techknology still works and can transverse with todays rigs!
I thank God for these people that restore and collect the older stuff. IT IS HISTORY and to see and use this stuff is just simply FUN! That is all I was saying!
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RE: Nixie Tube Display
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by K4JSR on February 19, 2008
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FEEEEEEEEEEE-LIP sed, "I want a classic HF rig with a nixie tube digital display. Any recommendations?"
Sorry, lad. You are just left out in the cold whistling "NIXIE".
NYUK! NYUK! NYUK!
Cal K4JSR
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by KA5ROW on February 19, 2008
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Sad Reality of Ham Radio:
The old tube radios of the 1960's. Johnson, Hallicrafters, Hammarlund, and Heathkit. have a nostalgic value that our new radios will never have. The Valiant will soon be 50 years old, and one in very good condition, is considered to be work of true craftsmanship. Or any good radio of the time. But my TS-570, or your Icom 756 Pro III, will be just be an old radio at 50 years. "Nothing special". And by that time the last glow bug would have died a slow death and gone dark.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by K5UJ on February 19, 2008
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<<<The old tube radios of the 1960's. Johnson, Hallicrafters, Hammarlund, and Heathkit. have a nostalgic value that our new radios will never have. The Valiant will soon be 50 years old, and one in very good condition, is considered to be work of true craftsmanship. Or any good radio of the time. But my TS-570, or your Icom 756 Pro III, will be just be an old radio at 50 years. "Nothing special". >>>
Hmmm. I'm not so sure about that. As was then the case, I think now, it depends on the rig. The TS870 used is going for what I paid for mine new. Try to buy one. I see a lot of "wanted" but not many if any "for sale." And Kenwood products seem to hold up well. I have a Kenwood stereo amplifier that I use every day and it's almost 30 years old. (That's kind of depressing so I have to quit thinking about it.) Of course there's no telling how useful and appealing the 870 will be in 50 years and I probably won't be around to find out but for now, I'd sell all my other rigs before I'd sell my 870.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N2EY on February 19, 2008
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KA5ROW writes: "The old tube radios of the 1960's. Johnson, Hallicrafters, Hammarlund, and Heathkit. have a nostalgic value that our new radios will never have."
I don't know if that's true or not. Nobody will really know until our "new" rigs are 50 years old.
KA5ROW: "The Valiant will soon be 50 years old, and one in very good condition, is considered to be work of true craftsmanship."
I think the Valiant dates from 1956 or so. Its design is certainly more than 50 years old.
As for being a work of true craftsmanship, that's a matter of opinion. Certainly EFJ did quite a job putting a 250+ watt CW/AM rig in a "desktop" package. If you have a really strong desk, that is!
But is a Valiant at the same level as, say, a Collins S-line, which originally dates from 1959? Or a Viking 2, which, while lower power, can do all the WARC bands? Or even a Heathkit Apache?
KA5ROW: "Or any good radio of the time."
Agreed! The big question is, which were the good ones?
KA5ROW: "But my TS-570, or your Icom 756 Pro III, will be just be an old radio at 50 years. "Nothing special"."
Maybe - or maybe not. Who is to say what the hams of, say, 2040 or 2050 will want to use? There are rumors of Kenwood leaving the amateur radio market - maybe in 50 years there will be hams restoring and using old Kenwoods the way hams today are restoring and using old Collins, Drake, Heath, EFJ and other rigs.
We don't really know for sure. Perhaps there will be folks who want a rig that doesn't need a computer to operate. Perhaps there will be folks who always wanted a (fill in the blank) rig, and finally have the money to get one. Etc. We just don't know.
I doubt very much that, in the '50s and '60s when those rigs were being designed, built and sold, that anyone involved thought they'd still be in use 30, 40, 50 years later. Yet there are plenty of rigs of that vintage and older on the air today.
KA5ROW: "And by that time the last glow bug would have died a slow death and gone dark."
Don't be too sure of that.
There are some hams who put pre-WW2 and even pre-1929 rigs on the air. That means they use only tubes and techniques available 70-80 years ago. Yet the put out decent signals and make QSOs. They take a bit of skill to operate but they do work.
And a lot of them are operated by hams much, much younger.
---
Back in the late 1970s and all through the 1980s I acquired quite a bit of hollow-state parts and rigs at incredibly low prices. Sold off most of the rigs years ago because I'm primarily a homebrewer (google my call).
I was told, time and again, that "nobody wants this old stuff" and "you won't be able to keep a hollow-state rig working for long because you won't be able to get tubes or parts for it", etc.
Now it's 25-30 years later and there's more interest in the stuff than ever. I sold all my older rigs years ago - NC-173, Viking 2 w/VFO, Valiant, DX-100, piles of ARC-5s, BC-348s, etc. - for a lot more than I pair for them. I bet most of them are on the air.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by WB2WIK on February 19, 2008
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>RE: Classic Rigs Reply
by K5UJ on February 19, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
And Kenwood products seem to hold up well. I have a Kenwood stereo amplifier that I use every day and it's almost 30 years old.<
::I have an FM stereo receiver/amplifier I listen to every day: It's a Fisher 500C, from 1962. That's 46 years old and it not only still works fine, it has a lower noise floor than your 30 year-old Kenwood. When tuned into an FM station that's "full quieting," if the station stops modulating for a moment (like between programs) and I crank the volume up all the way to 50W RMS output power, the background noise is nonexistent. There isn't any, at all. Not even amplified shot noise from the tubes. Just simply "nothing."
It sounds wonderful. I like the flywheel tuning mechanism, and yes it has a dial cord. In 46 years of dial-spinning with that receiver, the dial cord has never needed replacement.
Dial cord breakage occurs when stuff's abused, or it was a poor design to begin with.
My 1954-vintage HRO has its original dial cord, too.
However, the fancy LCD panel displays on today's rigs...well, I'd bet my bottom dollar that absolutely none of them will be working 54 years from now unless they just haven't been used in all that time.
The FPD manufacturers like LG and Sanyo claim MTTF of their panel displays is 20,000 hours. That's about 2-1/2 years of continuous operation.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N2EY on February 19, 2008
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WB2WIK writes: "However, the fancy LCD panel displays on today's rigs...well, I'd bet my bottom dollar that absolutely none of them will be working 54 years from now unless they just haven't been used in all that time.
The FPD manufacturers like LG and Sanyo claim MTTF of their panel displays is 20,000 hours. That's about 2-1/2 years of continuous operation."
Let's do the math....
20,000/54 = 370. IOW, about 1 hour per day.
So to have a 50/50 chance of having one of those panels last 54 years, it would have to be turned on no more than one hour per day.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by KI4YMD on February 19, 2008
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N2EY: "So to have a 50/50 chance of having one of those panels last 54 years, it would have to be turned on no more than one hour per day."
But would you want one of the new rigs 54 years from now?
I enjoy my 706MKII but it is not a rig I could attempt to
work on with ease. I'm on the lookout for a used
FT-101 to use as well.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N5YPJ on February 19, 2008
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Nope not at all.
I admit I have a soft spot for an AM BCB / SW boat anchor but nothing beyond this.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N2EY on February 20, 2008
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N2EY: "So to have a 50/50 chance of having one of those panels last 54 years, it would have to be turned on no more than one hour per day."
KI4YMD: "But would you want one of the new rigs 54 years from now?"
Depends on the rig. A lot of "new" rigs I wouldn't want to have today, let alone 54 years from now.
KI4YMD: "I enjoy my 706MKII but it is not a rig I could attempt to work on with ease."
Some things are a matter of what one is used to.
Back in 1977 I bought a Heathkit HW-2036 kit - a basic 2 meter FM transceiver - and built it. The parts seemed tiny at the time, all packed in what seemed like a very small box. Bought a new soldering iron and some tools at the same time because what I had was simply too big for those "tiny" parts.
It still works after many years, hours and miles.
Recently I opened it up, and was amazed at how enormous the parts seemed! Everything inside is gigantic compared to what "modern" stuff.
KI4YMD: "I'm on the lookout for a used FT-101 to use as well."
A very popular rig at the time.
You probably know this already, but be advised that there were many versions of the FT-101, and while they look very similar on the outside, they are very different inside. The early ones don't have a good reputation, but over time Yaesu made improvements and mods so the later ones were much better. There are websites with lots of good info on the various models.
And consider this: Most FT-101s are over 30 years old now, yet you can still put a good one on the air and have a lot of good QSOs with it. You can work on it too, although some parts may have to come from other '101s.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N2UGB on February 20, 2008
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I don't think anyone expects miracles from older tube or hybrid equipment. Those of us who have and use them recognize their limititations. I will not say deficiencies.
Read some of the reviews on the e-Ham site. Most of the reviewers of older gear are realistic. And, if they compliment an older rig, they frequently add that there is also a more contemporary one on the desk.
As I wrote some days ago, my Kenwood hybrids do everything I want them to do for my type of operation at this, the final stage of my amateur radio activity. I expect there are others who feel the same.
73
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by NI0C on February 20, 2008
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AF6AY wrote:
"AMBIENCE! Gotta love that, Chuck! :-)
Oh, wow, the ambience of selenium stack rectifier odor, the burning of half-watt carbon comp resistors, the waxy smell of ceresin wax from tubulars, the tarry goop that drools out of overheated potted transformers (and all over the underside of a chassis)!
Up-scale restaurants do the ambiance thing in order to charge an arm and a leg for 'fancy food' and convince lots of diners that such ambiance makes their food 'taste better.' Same with radios...what one experienced as a youth when first impressed with 'radio' makes the old gear somehow 'work better' than the new designs. That was Zen, this is Tao."
I think differences among hams (nostalgia for glowing tubes, smells, etc.) may have more to do with our recollections of those old experiences, based on our personality differences.
My wife and I have the same personality type (as measured by the Myers-Briggs Type Inventory), and both of us remember more what we hear than what we see, for instance. When we go to a restaurant, what we look for is a place that is quiet enough so we can hear ourselves think, and each other talk. Other people are more interested in the visual aspects of the ambience.
So, when I think back to earlier experinces of ham radio, I recall mostly things I heard-- the sound of a "fist" or a voice, and keying characteristics of a transmitter. Much more attenuated in my memory is what my radio dial looked like, or what the room smelled like. After all, radio is first and foremost about hearing (even when I operated RTTY for a brief time, I always had to listen to the signals.)
Perhaps the various opinions about "boat anchor" nostalgia are partially attributable to our personality differences and preferred modes of acquiring information and learning.
73,
Chuck NI0C
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by K5MO on February 20, 2008
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The only rig with true nixie tubes is the SBE-36. I've got one, and they're very few and far between. Someone else posted about Yaesu, but none of them had nixies (tubes yes, but not Nixies)
:-)
John K5MO
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by G3RZP on February 20, 2008
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Not all of the older rigs are that bad. The FT102 is good on phase noise and IMD: the reliability of its relays is a problem, but can easily be fixed by bleeding some DC through the contacts to avoid dry switching. The display is made of unobtainium, but you can cobble something together from available LED displays. Similarly, most of the ICs can be substituted with a little ingenuity. Other rigs of the same era have the capability of being kept going, albeit not necessarily in the pristine original form.
When most of the rig is in a 512 ball grid array that you can't off the PCB without wrecking things and the IC is an ASIC that hasn't been made for 5 years, you are pretty well sunk.
So do you want the latest super dooper rig and trade it every three years, or do you want to get a rig that you can repair?
In the last 25 years, I've had more semiconductor failures than tube failures. Of course, there's a lot more semiconductors in the station than tubes, but...
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by VU2PEP on February 20, 2008
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The glow of the boat anchors are always mystic. Only
lovers of boat anchors will vouch for it. An interesting incident which took place a couple of months back - We compared a new 1000MP with a old Hw101 with a Shure444D the reports we got were amazing out of the 10 qso's for a comparative report only one guy could marginally differnciate between the two. They told us the Hw101 sounded as good as the Mk-V.
When we used the the old Bc-348's Hro's and command tx
sets drift had no relevance 10 kc drift up and down still we could have a comforatable QSO. Who cares for the inrad filters in the modern day gizmos, when we can manage a few cycles drift with an old Hw101 or a FT101.
DSP and the filters just kills the natural sounding sound. Every qso is robotic and does not sound human.
With Internet on your power lines, which in on the anvil in most countries, I feel it could prove to be a death knell for all the modern day black boxes, Boat anchors will be back - There will a huge demand for these black beauties.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by WB2WIK on February 20, 2008
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>RE: Classic Rigs Reply
by K5MO on February 20, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
The only rig with true nixie tubes is the SBE-36. I've got one, and they're very few and far between. Someone else posted about Yaesu, but none of them had nixies (tubes yes, but not Nixies)
:-)
John K5MO<
::That's not really true. I had a Signal/One CX-7 that had real Nixie tubes for its frequency display (early generation).
I do remember some early JA gear that had real Nixies...maybe it was early 70's generation Yaesu stuff, not sure...I'll try to look it up and see what I find.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AD4U on February 20, 2008
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A really good operator using a 40 year old Heathkit HW16 (a less than optimum bare bones 50 watt novice transceiver) will run circles around a marginal operator using a $10,000 Yaesu or ICOM.
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by K8YZK on February 20, 2008
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My Classic is a Drake TR4 with MS4/AC3 power supply/speaker and original manual/sales slip.
Nothing beats a glow of tubes at night with the lights turned off in the radio room. It does bring back memories of 1966/67 when I was first licensed.
73
Kurt
K8YZK
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by WA3SKN on February 20, 2008
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Ahhhh... "The Good Old Days"! (that NEVER were!)
Let's bring back SPARK!... REAL RADIO!!!
73s
-Mike.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by KA5JRX on February 20, 2008
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You hit the mark with that statement. My big enjoyment is CW with nothing but an old transciever and a straight key. I don't think I would get anything out of using a computer connected to a radio. And the operators that use those automatic keyers maybe should try a little more code practice. But, to each their own, whatever floats your boat is just fine. I own a real nice Icom 745 with several bells and whistles. I have my old Kenwood TS-511s hooked up to the antenna today and had some great QSO's with good reports. This article sure got a lot of responses. Great discussions. Thanks to all.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N2EY on February 20, 2008
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"A really good operator using a 40 year old Heathkit HW16 (a less than optimum bare bones 50 watt novice transceiver) will run circles around a marginal operator using a $10,000 Yaesu or ICOM."
Very true.
However, imagine what a really good operator using a really good rig (TT, Elecraft) can do....
--
The HW-16, while not "state of the art", was and still is a very good basic CW rig. Will run up to 90 watts input and has full QSK, too.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N2EY on February 20, 2008
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"The only rig with true nixie tubes is the SBE-36."
Besides the original CX-7, what about the Heath SB line with the SB-650 "digital dial" accessory? Granted, that wasn't a built-in display, but IIRC it did use real live Nixie tubes.
---
Way back in 1976 I designed and built a digital dial adapter that could be used with almost any ham rig of the era. You set the offset and tuning direction with jumpers. Worked really well, but I discovered I preferred a mechanical dial.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N2EY on February 20, 2008
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G3RZP: "So do you want the latest super dooper rig and trade it every three years, or do you want to get a rig that you can repair?"
GOOD QUESTION! And it points to a whole bunch of issues.
Years ago, electronics of all kinds were built with the idea that they'd be repairable - at least in theory. One reason was that the MTBF was relatively low, another was that replacement cost was relatively high. Ham gear was no exception, particularly considering how much it cost and how long we hams expected its useful life to be. We had the mindset that most ham gear, if cared for reasonably well, could be kept going pretty much indefinitely. Rigs might pass through many hands but with decent care they'd last decades.
Then a bunch of things happened. More-reliable components and designs reduced the need for repair and maintenance of electronics. Complexity rose and size diminished. An old concept took over "consumer" electronics: Planned obsolescence - "ending is better than mending". Don't fix the old, or expect it to last a long time; if it breaks, toss it and get a new one. If the magnetron in your microwave oven goes, do you replace it?
The leading edge of that change is computers. I've lost track of how many working computers, monitors, printers and other goodies I've rescued from the discard. They were tossed after just a few years because some new piece of software wouldn't run on them, or because something minot failed and became the excuse for a replacement, etc. In many cases the reason was simply that there was a standing policy to replace IT equipment every so many years regardless of all other considerations. And I'm not talking cheap stuff; I've found name-brand computers that cost several thousand dollars a few years ago on their way to the dumpster. Monitors? They're all over the place for nothing because flat-screens are the New Thing.
IIRC, the IRS considers computers to fully depreciate in 3 years. That means they go from new to scrap in that time.
Now apply that mindset to ham gear...
73 de Jim, N2EY
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by K8YZK on February 20, 2008
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WA3SKN Mike, the good old days that never were.
You make that sound like you don't believe it.
It was the good old days(mid-60's) for me, a teenager, radio,cars and GIRLS..it was good for me.
Now for radio's I always wanted the Drake, finally got it and it only took 40+years. I don't use it all the time as I also have a TT Jupiter,Kenwood TS-570S, Icom IC-703+,Yaesu FT-77. (see I try to spread it all around), but the glow of tubes(not amp tubes) with a brown 807, is just plain relaxing.
Kurt
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by HA5WF on February 20, 2008
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If you have a look of a daily pictures of shacks, appearing at right side of the main page, you can see state-of-the art rigs along with "boat anchors".
Playing with the old rigs is a joy, you have a special feeling.
If you are a serious contester, use a modern rig, but never deny, radio has a history.
If you are not a fat cat, why shall you spend a huge money to buy a latest model of radio only to play with it? Amateur radio is a hobby.
Use freely the conventional models to spend your leasure time to be satisfied with feeling of RADIO.
Mni DX es 73!
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by KW5G on February 20, 2008
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For any of you who may like to dip the plate, Wednesday night at 7:30 central time ,thats 1:30 UTC , the boat anchors net meets on 3870 LSB and net control takes your check in and comments. Nothing formal just rag chew and talk about our radios.
Dennis
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by K6YE on February 20, 2008
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Great article. I have a Drake 4-Line (TR4C/RV4C/MS4/AC4/DC4) that has been sitting idle for ten years. The TR4C PTO needs alignment and I have never gotten around to do it. I intend to do this as soon as my bride, KD6PYK, heals from her recent vertebrae fusion. One of my friends has agreed to lend me a variac to bring this bad boy slowly up. In addition, I will attempt to resurrect my first "QRO" transmitter (Heathkit DX-40). I had been running an Ameco AC-1, 15 watt input, transmitter in the early 60's before acquiring the DX-40 from Henry Radio.
I really liked the Drake rig as it kicked butt on CW, barefoot yet, before the advent of the 200 watt radios (FT-1000D/FT-2000D/FT-9000/IC-775DSP).
OTOH, I really like my FT-1000D and IC-775DSP radios because of their extra features.
Hey, whatever floats your boat, enjoy the hobby.
Semper Fi,
Tommy - K6YE
DX IS
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by NL7W on February 21, 2008
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Yes, the nostalgic mystique is real. I enjoy radios from the late 70's and 80's -- those hybrids with solid-state receivers and tube drivers and final amplifiers. I like to know I can work on them when needed. It remains my hope that parts availability continues for at least another decade.
Long live the TS-520S, TS-830S, and FT-101's of all designation.
73.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by G3RZP on February 21, 2008
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However, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that ham radio gear has never been cheaper in real terms than it is now. Which encourages the 'use it and throw it' approach. But I'm so mean that my amplifier has a screen regulator using a 6L6G that my father bought in 1936, and I want his money's worth out of it.
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by K4YRK on February 21, 2008
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I am active on both modern SSB mode with an Icom 756ProII and Ten Tec Orion 2. Also love the old classic AM rigs and currently operate a Johnson Ranger 2 AM Transmitter and Hammarlund HQ 170 receiver. I regularly check into 3.885 AM activity and 3.715 Old Friends AM Net on Tuesday mornings at 9am EST and Sunday afternoons at 3pm.
73
K4YRK
"Real Radio's Glow in the Dark"
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AD4U on February 21, 2008
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After hamming more than 40 years, I have been fortunate to own and use many different rigs, including some of the high tech modern, DSP, "do everything" radios.
However for the past 2 years at least 95% of my air time has been with a Drake 2C receiver with 2CQ "Q" multiplier / speaker and a Drake 2NT crystal controlled "novice" transmitter that puts out 50-60 watts on a good day. In the past 2 years I have confirmed 287 countires with this set up on 7.022 MHz. I only have that one crystal.
Not everybody will agree, but in my opinion, this is fun.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by W4LGH on February 21, 2008
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AD4U...287 countries on a Drake 2c WOW, thats super bud..we need to find you some crystals!! Just further proof that the Drakes will live on and on. My oldest Drake is the TR-3 which goes back to 1963, and it still plays like new. It is not used everyday like my 4B line, but it gets its share of use. Both of my AMPS are also Drake, the L4B & the L7. I sold off my new amp. Both amps have the original 3-500's in them, and still do full output. The L7, I did beef up the power supply, and raise the plate voltage to 3200v @ key down, so she really pumps it out. The L4B is dedicated to the 4B line, since it completes the set.
I love my Yaesu FT2K, but honestly it was bought to replace my FT1KMP to comtinue the "Blue" glow of the dials. Sounds crazy, but true...however it turned out to be much more radio. My ham buddies refer to my hamshack as the "Blue Room" as when the lights are dimmed down, the room gets this nice BLUE Glow about
it.
Keep the Boatanchors going, not only are they still great performers, it keeps our heritage going. Nothing like the glow of tubes!
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by WB2WIK on February 21, 2008
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>by W4LGH on February 21, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I love my Yaesu FT2K, but honestly it was bought to replace my FT1KMP to comtinue the "Blue" glow of the dials. Sounds crazy, but true...however it turned out to be much more radio. My ham buddies refer to my hamshack as the "Blue Room" as when the lights are dimmed down, the room gets this nice BLUE Glow about
it.<
::My TR-7 and RV-7 dials and meter glow blue, too...and they're used frequently. When the meter lamps in my AL-80B expired (about one year of operation! -- poor lamp choice) I replaced them with blue LEDs, so they're blue, too.
Gotta do something about the HAM-IV control box pilot lamps...where's my blue filter material?
:-)
WB2WIK/6
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by AH6FC on February 21, 2008
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Miss the old rigs? Nope. Except for perhaps better fidelity in the audio, maybe, the old rigs...any flavor just don't compare to the new gear.
But, like everybody else, I do miss the glow of those cherry red plates on my SB-401 and the smell and smoke of transformer burning up...but I didn't like it at the time! hi hi.
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by K1DA on February 21, 2008
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First receiver I turn on is a 75S1. Not the best sounding or the most stable reciever I have but just fun to use. It conveys that there was once something serious about the hobby (even if the gear was also made for commercial/military use. The new stuff handles like cheap stereo gear with controls mounted with tabs and a faux front panel. If I smell a burning resistor I can fix it "from stock" in no time. The Japomatics have to go where? BTW that new K3 is great.. and Sherwood just released a road test of a bunch of stuff which shows the modified R4C is close, real close. The best sounding receivers I have are a modified ICOM
and a late series R4A also modified. BTW I do a lot of dxing on 80 SSB. The tube gear I use hasn't held me back much. Those who knock the old gear probably can't begin to repair their radios, couldn't use the old stuff effectivly because they don't have a clue as to how it works and no doubt send their store bought dipoles back to the factory as well. Just keep telling us how bad it is boys, it keeps the price down.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by W4LGH on February 21, 2008
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Wow, I see N2EY has made his way to this thread. He is a True to Life "Know it All", self appointed expert in every subject, a plethora of information, and a legend in his own mind. He probably even knows the true meaning of life. Anyway, enough about Jim, we could do an entire thread on him...hmmmm...naw.
There are quiet a few classic rigs that can hang with the new stuff today, as WB2WIK says about his Drake TR-7. I too, own a TR-7A and it must have been way ahead of it time, as it will hang with about 95% of the stuff made in the past 10 years. Though not tubes, it is a 30yr old radio, and it did sell for $1500 in 1978. And the R-7 receiver is still one of the most sought after receivers out there, still commanding a top dollar price. New and improved is not necessarilly a good term. Is it new and improved for the consumer, or for the manufacture? If it is the later, that usually means they figured out a way to make it cheaper!
Enjoy your radios...Make a new contact today!
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AF9J on February 21, 2008
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My Icom IC-740 is like the TR-7 - it's not hollow state (I have a Globe Scout 680, Johnson Viking 2, Hallicrafters SX-96, and a Kenwood TS-820 to satisfy that Jones), but it's a fantastic performer. In my 30 years as a ham, I've seldom had a receiver as hot, or as quiet as its receiver is. It also has 2, 250Hz CW filters in it, and I got my hands on a keyer board for it. My apartment building neighbor gave it to me in a non-working state. One of the control board resistors was burned out. I replaced it (I was given the replacement resistor at work for nothing), and the radio now works great. The notch, filter, IF shift, and passband tuning work almost as well as DSP. I love it, and it's not for sale.
73,
Ellen - AF9J
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by WB2WIK on February 22, 2008
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I still have the sales receipt for my TR-7. It's a lot more than $1500, because I bought it with accessories that I thought I'd need (correct assumption): TR-7 plus PS-7, RV-7, NB-7, service manual and two optional crystal filters totaled about $2600.
In today's dollarettes that would be about $6K, or higher cost than every rig on the market except the IC-7800 and FT-9000.
Despite that alarming price for the era, they sold thousands of them. Interestingly, most of those are still on the air, working fine -- not more than 2-3 days goes by that I don't work another guy using one.
Besides the pure joy of using it, I like that it's so incredibly serviceable. Modular, with mother-board/daughter-board construction, like a computer. Everything's accessible if you have a screwdriver and some time. Using extender boards (an option) you can "raise" the boards that are harder to reach so they're at working level and fully exposed. And the interstage shielding is amazing, and very well done.
I was also an "early adopter" of the Icom square box series of rigs, beginning with the IC-701, which led to the IC-720, IC-740, IC-745 and IC-751. Of all those, the IC-751A is best as it encompasses the best features of all the others, while eliminating most of the foibles. But with age, they become "IC dicey" while the TR-7 just plugs along.
WB2WIK/6
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by KA2IBN on February 23, 2008
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I don't miss the old equipment at all because I like all the bells and whistles of new transceivers plus the small size of some of the units.
My station today is a Yaesu FT 857D all mode that covers every band from 160m to 70cm taking up a square foot of desk space.
When I was licensed in 1980 to have the same capabilities would have required more equipment than I could have afforded.
Sure I had tube equipment back in the 1960's when I began my radio hobby as a short wave listener fondly remembering the smell and the glow in the dark. Those were fun days but I also enjoy radio of today.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by KC9GUZ on February 23, 2008
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I love the old rigs! The old Collins, Heahtkits, older pre 1980s Kenwoods, Icoms, and the good ol' reliable Yaesu FT 101 series!! They all will always have a spot in my shack!!!!!
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by K3HVG on February 23, 2008
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Someone mentioned perspective, I think. The thing is, with the exception of trying to use an S-38 or S-40B on 10 meters, there are precious few situations where new gear that will allow one to communicate and an older rig simply cannot. With a good antenna, whether a Swan 350, a Drake C-Line, or a 2008 Belchfire MKIII fresh from HRO, they'll all make it.... one way or another.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AF6AY on February 23, 2008
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NI0C posted about Ambiance on February 20, 2008:
"I think differences among hams (nostalgia for glowing tubes, smells, etc.) may have more to do with our recollections of those old experiences, based on our personality differences."
Of course that's true...plus the amount of 'imprinting' one got (long ago) from write-ups and advertisers and the 'learned comments' of (then) 'older radio people.' Shrink-wrap mental specialists call that "conditioned thinking" but (as a lay person) I prefer the colloquial 'brainwashing.' :-)
NI0C: "My wife and I have the same personality type (as measured by the Myers-Briggs Type Inventory), and both of us remember more what we hear than what we see, for instance. When we go to a restaurant, what we look for is a place that is quiet enough so we can hear ourselves think, and each other talk. Other people are more interested in the visual aspects of the ambience."
My wife and I have only been tested at the College of Hard Knox, marriage-wise. But, we did go together in high school ('49-'51) so we've got a LOT of shared nostalgia from way back when. We go to restaurants for the FOOD, not the ambiance. <shrug> In this Los
Angeles urban area we have an enormous choice for different 'ambiances' and very few of the write-ups manage to truthfully equate the flavor of the food with the flavor of an eating-place's 'atmosphere.' Too many food columnists write too much arty prose competing with one another. In a way, that's what it is with amateur radio equipment (as well as many other things in life)...what we got acquainted with very early in life will stick with us as life choices.
NI0C: "So, when I think back to earlier experinces of ham radio, I recall mostly things I heard-- the sound of a "fist" or a voice, and keying characteristics of a transmitter. Much more attenuated in my memory is what my radio dial looked like, or what the room smelled like. After all, radio is first and foremost about hearing (even when I operated RTTY for a brief time, I always had to listen to the signals.)"
Human beans vary. My recollection cues are visual more than audible. But, since I started in HF communications in 1953, at a HUGE multi-transmitter, multi-receiver military station, it hardly compared to any single-operator, single Rx-Tx ham shack. TTYs were all over the place, principally for Order Wires between very separate Rx and Tx and Control facilities.
Since there was NO morse code involved, ALL messaging was by AFSK TTY (on SSB) or RTTY. On top of that the 'spread' (or shift between Mark and Space) was 850 cycles, not the narrower 170 Hz of today. Serious stuff when the Cold War was ramping up, us Signal folk got our messages through 24/7. A very different form of nostalgia-in-radio for me.
NI0C: "Perhaps the various opinions about "boat anchor" nostalgia are partially attributable to our personality differences and preferred modes of acquiring information and learning."
A very long time ago I rather downsized much of my nostalgia for a lot of things. For example, my very first commercial communications receiver was a National NC-57, purchased with my own earned money in 1948. True boat anchor, had a steel cabinet, tubes
(naturally), but single-conversion, drifted like a canoe without a paddle in a river. Several shortcomings in its design as I would learn on studying more about radio electronics. I still have it in workshop storage, 6SB7Y mixer-LO worn out, rotary band switch contacts corroded, and the back-lit celluloid dials firmly yellowed through oxidation. I designed and built a 4-band SW BC receiver for my father, double conversion, had temp-stabilized L-C local oscillators, was much easier to use by non-radio folk like my Dad. For myself in the 1960s, the tube architecture Heath SB-310 was a marvel of an upgrade, got only limited mods to eliminate the preselector tuning, was stable as a rock.
The SB-310, like the other Heath 'S' line, still had the band switch contacts exposed to air (via a lovely perfed cabinet) and those became corroded beyond fixing. Multi-wafer rotary switch components today are as rare as hen's teeth and cost more than they are
worth. Sorry, but the only thing GOOD about those boat anchors boils down to the lovely tuning LO on the '310 that copied the Collins style of architecture introduced in the late 1940s. Whoever did the contracted production of the Heath 'S' line tuning LO assembly made a VERY good design in my book.
With the advance of electronics technology came the PLL and the microprocessor in a practical form (the PLL was invented in 1932). My almost quarter-century old Icom R70 DC-to-30 MHz still works fine, is still in-spec, sits next to my Icom 746Pro (almost the same
styling and cabinet sizes, colors). I've heard all kinds of stories about 'repairing one's own equipment' and general bragging about their boat anchors and have to wonder: My own purchased stuff hasn't broken down yet, so why worry about all that 'fixing?'
Yes, I've HAD to repair some old gear, mostly at work, partly for others who didn't have the facilities (or faculties), but the only modern non-tube failures were all due to direct physical damage incurred. Properly-designed solid-state equipment can last longer than the MTBF ratings state...when used intermittently such as in amateur radio. Designed improperly, the failure rate can approach (but not quite catch up to) vacuum tube filament burn-out. Proper design of tube filaments just didn't come around until about 1960 and then those tube types were given all-numeric nomenclatures and priced higher on the market...good for commercial mobile radios but NOT a competitor with those new transistors just coming out.
For personal aesthetic taste, I like the Collins KWM-2. 'Used' one just once, seen only a few installations but I think the 'oughtness' factor made it shine as one of the last of the good-looking boat anchors. The early Drake's looked nice to me, but I didn't like their color schemes (personal taste again). Hallicrafters SX-62 with its wide, wide dial makes a fine visual impression, but its innards don't quite match their outsides. Others mileage varies.
Having used a very new Collins R390 (in late '55) and calibrated several R391s (Autotune version, around 1960), they are wonderful as set-and-forget receivers but just do NOT live up to their wonderfulness as written up elsewhere.
For transmitters, as aircraft carrier boat anchors, the military BC-339 would make an ideal old-timers' 1 KW CW rig. Designed in the 1930s, it was terribly conservative in design and would, literally, work for years continuously, QSYed at least four times a day. Trouble is, for a ham shack it is HUGE, absolutely needs a concrete floor to stand on...and a fork-lift to haul it in and place it. Took four young guys with steel pipe rollers to haul just a defective plate transformer outside for truck pickup...it would probably crush a typical residential wooden flooring. :-) Not lovely looking but easily does HF up to around 18 MHz at maximum amateur power and has all sorts of knobs and controls to fiddle with...but
designed for 600 Ohm open-wire feedline (three antennas through a selector switch)...not the little sissy 300 to 450 Ohm ham stuff. :-)
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AF6AY on February 23, 2008
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W4LGH posted on February 21, 2008:
"Wow, I see N2EY has made his way to this thread. He is a True to Life "Know it All", self appointed expert in every subject, a plethora of information, and a legend in his own mind. He probably even knows the true meaning of life. Anyway, enough about Jim, we could do an entire thread on him...hmmmm...naw."
Please don't encourage him...he's had a long career over on rec.radio.amateur.policy. :-)
W4LGH: "There are quiet a few classic rigs that can hang with the new stuff today, as WB2WIK says about his Drake TR-7. I too, own a TR-7A and it must have been way ahead of it time, as it will hang with about 95% of the stuff made in the past 10 years. Though not tubes, it is a 30yr old radio, and it did sell for $1500 in 1978. And the R-7 receiver is still one of the most sought after receivers out there, still commanding a top dollar price. New and improved is not necessarilly a good term. Is it new and improved for the consumer, or for the manufacture? If it is the later, that usually means they figured out a way to make it cheaper!"
As one who has been IN the electronics design engineering section of the industry, there's a whole large complicated matrix of choices on new products. For DoD contracts it is largely technical performance, and under severe physical environments. The consumer electronics field (amateur radios come under consumer electronics in my mind) is much more competitive and marketing does a lot for what we THINK are 'new and improved.'
Yes, I agree on the Drakes as far as operator comfort to do its HF task...just needed a different color scheme to satisfy me (personal choice). But, the model for that architecture was based on what came out of Cedar Rapids, IA, earlier in time, followed closely by RACAL in the UK. In the last three decades or so, Japanese designers have Ruled on the 'new and improved' area of the ready-builts. Those clever innovative folks were ALSO doing things in other areas of consumer electronics and not blind to what was happening there. The 'spectrum scope' FFT display of parts of a band can be traced to the audio spectral displays on 'home music systems' of decades prior...just took some faster A/D and processing that were boosted by advances triggered by audio and video pro equipment. The use of larger internal microprocessors did an enormous influence on not having to build rather complicated mechanical couplings or have (now) expensive ganged rotary switches. Having such microprocessors inside allowed the 'memory' storage of frequencies and easy 'split' frequency selection...even 'memory' of the last band selected (even if power went off), all through Flash memory. Flash memory technology rules on much of todays entertainment consumer electronics, even down to lawn sprinkler controllers. The heart of the automatic HF antenna coupler came out of Collins Radio around '55 as part of their Autotune system for a USMC HF transmitter; it was simplified later to microprocessor controlled relays switching L and C components, no motors involved. Automatic antenna tuners can be built so small and low-powered that one was designed in to the military AN/PRC-104 HF backpack transceiver that became operational in the 1980s. Ideal for covering a decade of HF spectrum with a single whip antenna.
A lot of the griping I've heard is the common complaint that 'digital' sound is some sort of raspy, scratchy, metallic kind of thing that broadcasting would never touch! Bah, humbug, the melliflous sound of wideband audio broadcasting *IS* processed digitally today and has been for years. The same with lots of old NTSC video and certainly so with HDTV of today. For example, picture quality of DTV just can't be appreciated on most CRT displays. With a digital LCD or plasma screen to show it, the detail and clarity (under all sorts of amplitude-of-RF-carrier changes) is remarkably fine and consistent. The music played over audio broadcasting today comes from CDs which are digital in their recording methods with a wide bandwidth and wide dynamic range. I would say that all that griping by some old-timers comes from their inability to adjust to new things, ANY new thing. Hey, at 75 years, I CAN understand that frame of mind. I just won't give in to it. :-)
Marketing folk are in the business of trying to convince all to Buy Their Product. That's their job...and they will 'bend' words around to convince you, however which way they want. Everyone says their product is 'best.' [they would say it was worst?!? :-) ] So, that means one has to VERY carefully peruse their ads' statements and check their technical specs. One must strip off the emotional baggage some marketers stuff into their ads...as well as preconceived ideas others have stuffed into the mind of the observers.
One of the current buzzwords in specs today is 'phase noise' of oscillators or RF amplifiers. Since that came around with the RISE of the cellular telephone equipment, it makes sense. Cell phones use QAM (Quadrature Amplitude(-phase) Modulation) so the phase of an RF signal's stability has as much importance as amplitude stability. But, much of modern advertising of amateur HF equipment has emphasized 'phase noise' as an 'important criterion' of a ham Tx. Phooey, the modulations on amateur HF bands haven't changed that much and VERY FEW involve any QAM systems. It's just a carry-over BUZZWORD seen in the industrial-telecom market advertising. If it is lower than a competitor's it will 'look good' but it doesn't really mean squat for amateur radio (on HF) operation.
Do we in the USA really NEED receivers with third-order IP of 1 W or better for HF? I don't think so. But, few of us live next door to a multi-KW HF BC station as happens in Europe, at least according to Rhode & Schwarz. For 44 years I've resided only about 8 miles from KMPC transmitter running 50 KW AM in the middle of the AM BC band. Inverse-square-law of field strength doesn't make it a problem to me. It does tend to bother folks who live across the street from the Tx site. :-) If Rhode & Schwarz has the high-IP3 technology, fine, but I'm not convinced there is all that 'need' for it. Intermodulation distortion from nearby HF stations has a LOT of different causes in HF receivers and it isn't solely from a mixer's performance. But, a High IP3 has a nice buzzword ring to it so the marketers focus on that. <shrug>
Manufacturers are in the business of MAKING PROFIT. Clever advertising helps make more profit. Amateurs aren't supposed to be making any profit from their ham radio. But, the ARRL sometimes tries to convince hams they are 'more' than just amateur. I can't see why some folks can't understand that? <shrug>
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by KC8VWM on February 23, 2008
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I suspect that usually when hams pine for old rigs, they are really waxing nostalgic for the "old days" of ham radio.
------------
I disagree.
The old days of ham radio for me started way, way back in the year 2003 and now I have racks of the stuff in my shack including rigs like the R 390A, several BC-348Q,s, Hammarlunds, R 1051's, T-827D and others to name a few.
They are easy to work on, easy to use and best of all they reduce my shack heating bills and have no complicated menu's! :)
73 de Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by WB6CGJ on February 23, 2008
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Lou, thanks for sharing your thoughts on vingtage radio's. I too love this aspect of Amatuer Radio. My station includes an ICOM 746 PRO, ICOM 7000, Kenwood TS-520, and of course my vintage HEATHKIT APACHE TX-1, and NATIONAL NC-183 receiver. The modern radio's are great. However, there is something majic about resurrecting a grand old radio from "yester-year" from the junk box and bringing it back to life once again. The glow of the tubes, the warmth,the smell, and hearing a far off station brings me back to a time when I first discovered this great hobby. Much like listening to "oldies" on the broadcast radio. No I don't live in the past. However, it sure is nice to go there from time to time. As Bob Hope would have said, "Thanks for the Memories."
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by W4LGH on February 23, 2008
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Len AF6AY said..."One of the current buzzwords in specs today is 'phase noise' of oscillators or RF amplifiers."
============================
Len..I read your entire post and I have to agree with you 100%. You gotta love the buzzwords, and the one that gets to me is "ROOFING FILTER", like it is something new! Every radio receiver ever made that was superhet, has had a roofing filter, originally known as the 1st IF filter. Now granted they have made some selectable, but the fact is, it is NOT new!
As for digital audio being bad, that simply isn't true as you said again. Everything that people listen to today, has been converted "A to D" processed and converted back "D to A". My audio is converted to digital, I process it, compress it, limit it and gate it all digitally, then convert it back. Yes digital has done a lot for electronics, both commercially and in the home arena. Its easy to convert, and once converted, very easy to manipulate however you want it, and easy to convert it back.
I worked in the broadcast industry for many years, and even the small 1k AM stations use digital processing somewhere in their audio chain. I think the sound of the audio in tube rigs that everyone loves comes from the fact that most tube rigs have about 5watts of audio power and used large speakers, the new stuff doesn't. Don't get me wrong, I love my old vintage stuff, but not for the reason of how its sounds, or the fact that it is completely analog. My audio chain goes thru the same digital process. My love goes back to the fact that most of the equipment I now own that is vintage, I simply could NOT afford when it was new. I also enjoy the fact that I brought it back to life, and can fix it if it goes out. I can fix the new stuff as well, but it requires a lot more setup time, and specialized gear to work on. I to do not live in the past, but it is a big kick, an escape to go back to a time when life was simpler, and I enjoy the quality and workmanship of yester-year. Something that has long since been lost in todays world of disposable electronics.
I certainly enjoy my new rigs as well, but it is fun to go back, and there is something mystic about watching tubes glow. However living in Florida, the heat factor certainly isn't one of them.
So for me, there are lots of reasons, and I enjoy them all. Take care and enjoy your radios, its a fun hobby that most do not understand.
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N2EY on February 24, 2008
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"You gotta love the buzzwords, and the one that gets to me is "ROOFING FILTER", like it is something new!"
It's not new in that ham rigs have had roofing filters for a couple decades now.
"Every radio receiver ever made that was superhet, has had a roofing filter, originally known as the 1st IF filter."
No, that's not right.
Originally, the 1st superhets just had one IF, and its selectivity (which was set by the IF transformers) was the receiver selectivity, except for possibly some restriction in the audio response. Later, (1930s/1940s), crystal and mechanical filters were used to get selectivity that LC IFTs could not deliver. But in all cases the selectivity of the IF was the selectivity of the receiver (except, again, for possible audio selectivity).
More recently, ham rig-makers have gone to first IFs in the VHF ranger. A crystal filter was used at the first IF, set for the widest signal that the receiver could be expected to receive. Additional filters at the second and possibly third IFs set the receiver selectivity, though.
Even more recently, digital signal processing (DSP) at the last IF frequency has been used to set the receiver selectivity.
That first-IF filter became known as a "roofing filter" because its purpose wasn't to set the receiver selectivity, but only to limit the overall IF bandwidth the later stages of the receiver had to deal with. The roofing filter also had to be wide enough to permit passband tuning and other features.
IOW, the "roofing filter" does *not* set the overall receiver selectivity, like the first-IF filters of old.
That's a completely different purpose from the first-IF filters in earlier designs.
The problem with the "roofing filter" approach is that the selectivity "knothole" is placed too far from the antenna. Selectable narrower "roofing filters" help the situation.
btw, the current leader in HF receiver performance (among manufactured amateur radio transceivers) is the Elecraft K3. See the Sherwood Engineering website.
Some inexperienced-in-amateur-radio folks may not understand why amateurs are so concerned with performance measures such as phase noise, various measures of dynamic range, etc. The reason is simple: under some conditions, an HF amateur band as received at many amateur's locations can be full of signals ranging from a fraction of a microvolt to a fraction of a volt or more, and the amateur may wish to hear the weakest signals. (Any receiver can receive the strongest ones).
73 de Jim, N2EY
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Classic Rigs
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by KD3JF on February 24, 2008
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I have a TenTec Triton IV and a TenTec Delta both radios at least 30 years old. Also have 2-D104's and a 10D mikes.
For QRP I have 2 recent models.... Elecraft K1 & KX1.
Paul Gates, KD3JF
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by K3JVB on February 24, 2008
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...yes they may be old
But I just wanted to have what I could not have , when I first started in radio. The complete Swan staion in 1967 was out of my 15 year old reach.
I just wore out my fathers lawn mower...and there still was not enough lawns to cut...LOL
So I have both new and old today. It is a hobby, just like anything...and fun too.
73
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Classic Rigs
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by KB3NGA on February 24, 2008
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We just being taken for suckers, DSP in most instances just means cheaper manufacturing with no real world RF improvement that can be measured in an convincing manner.
Well it goes to show u haven't operated a 756pro,II, or III Or how about a 7000 On my 756Pro I can get rid of all the backround noise with barely effecting the audio response of AM SSB and we wont goto CW.
The best thing about it is that purchasing and collecting this gear if very affordable!
Well you left out maintaing try finding sweep tubes if you need them.
I run 3.933 ragchewing and everytime I hear one of these boatachors on the air I think THANK GOD FOR ICOM
I'm a proud owner of an ICOM 756,756Pro,7000,and V8000 and they are all outstanding radios I would never want anything that drifts or sounds like garbage with the narrow bandpass on tx my icoms dont drift nor splatter.
Yeah you spend more money but when you care about the quailty of the signal you put out you cant go wrong with ICOM!!! DE KB3NGA
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by K3JVB on February 24, 2008
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ouch !
I have never gotten a bad audio report with my older gear.
But...as I said, with me, it is a hobby. I would think anybody would agree that the tube rigs of yester-year can't match up to the hi end gear on the market today.
It is more nostalgia ...not max performance. At least in my shack, that is.
73
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N2EY on February 24, 2008
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k3jvb writes: "I would think anybody would agree that the tube rigs of yester-year can't match up to the hi end gear on the market today."
That depends on what you mean by "match up". And "high end gear on the market today".
The Drake R-4C, with suitable mods, has receiver performance numbers comparable to some of the best current rigs. OTOH no matter what you do to an NCX-3, it's probably not going to measure up.
Some of the rigs of 40-50-60+ years ago put out T9X CW signals that are just as good as the best rigs on the market today. Others can be modified to be right up there with the latest rigs in signal quality. (This may be one reason some folks dislike CW - the signal quality is not an indicator of how new the rig is, or how much it cost).
What constitutes "high end"? Rigs over $5000? $3000? $2000? A lot of hams can't afford that much, others don't want to tie up all that money in one box.
There's also the questions of "how much rig do you really need for the hamming you actually do?" and "how much antenna do you have?".
The big issue for a lot of hams is being able to work on the rig. All the MTBF numbers and reliability claims in the world mean nothing if the rig doesn't work when you need it to, and you can't fix it.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by KB1SF on February 24, 2008
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I'd be interested to know how many old farts waxing eloquently for a return to the "classic rigs" are posting their comments using Radio Shack TRS-80s or even (gasp!) an IBM PC or something similar from that era) to do it with.
73,
Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by K7PEH on February 24, 2008
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>>>The big issue for a lot of hams is being able to work on the rig. All the MTBF numbers and reliability claims in the world mean nothing if the rig doesn't work when you need it to, and you can't fix it. <<<
If I worked on my rig I can promise you that the MTBF will get worse, not better. I have an Icom 756 Pro III and my backup rig is an Icom 756. The Icom service center is just a 15 minute drive away if I need to have something fixed. I did take my backup rig in to have a some minor fixup work done (front-end diode failure) and was very pleased with the service and I know, without even knowing who they are, that they are better at fixing Icoms then I am.
I do have an old Hammarlund HQ-170A that I am nursing back into quality to mimic the service that my HQ-170AC gave me from my novice days 40+ years ago -- too bad I sold that thing back then. Does anyone have a HQ clock they want to sell me. I found one at a recent ham fest but the guy selling it wanted to charge way too much -- though, he was willing to throw in a free receiver along with the $300 clock!
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AF6AY on February 24, 2008
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W4LGH posted on 24 Feb 08:
Len AF6AY said..."One of the current buzzwords in specs today is 'phase noise' of oscillators or RF amplifiers."
============================
"Len..I read your entire post and I have to agree with you 100%. You gotta love the buzzwords, and the one that gets to me is "ROOFING FILTER", like it is something new! Every radio receiver ever made that was superhet, has had a roofing filter, originally known as the 1st IF filter. Now granted they have made some selectable, but the fact is, it is NOT new!"
Alan, when the technology hasn't changed much but a group has suddenly picked up on something, it is often that someone comes up with a buzzword. :-)
Good ol' Jimmy just HAD to post on that subject...AS IF no one else knew anything about radio. I seem to recall that 'roofing filter' was in vogue in the RF-microwave side of electronics around the 1970s...then quietly went under until someone picked it up for amateur radio. Jimmy seems to have forgotten about single-conversion receivers that used a Collins 'mechanical' (magnetostrictive) filter right after the 1st Mixer. Was good for the lower end of HF before images couldn't be rejected enough at the higher end (with the ubiquitous 455 KHz IF).
However, Jimmy didn't go into a POWER BUDGET analysis to try to spot where IMD can show up in a receiver chain. That isn't on any current buzzword list officially approved by the ARRL so 'Power Budgets' don't exist. RF designers have used that on both Rx and Tx for decades. IMD problems aren't solely dependent on mixers, something that's been known in the RF side of electronics for longer than three decades.
One of my favorites is 'PRODUCT DETECTOR' for SSB reception. Geez, to use John Carson's 1915 write-up of formulas for the three basic modulation schemes, the half-wave rectifier known as a 'diode detector' is ALSO a 'product detector.' :-) So is any sort of mixer. In the current telecomm biz, 'zero IF' architecture simply uses a first (and only) LO at the carrier frequency to mix everything down to 'baseband' (telecomm's older but venerable buzzword for the original audio). That was adopted for QRP receivers a few decades after Long-Lines on microwaves used it for frequency-multiplexing dozens of baseband signals into a gargantuan 'carrier' complex for FMing.
Originally an old buzzword, the venerable BFO became part of the modern ham lexicon years ago. With the half-wave rectifier known as a 'diode detector,' the combination becomes (lo and behold!) a 'product detector!' :-) Oh, wow, the many times that 'older' (but NOT wiser) heads have told me "You are WRONG" on that! :-) I'm right, but that doesn't matter to some folks who only use the 'approved' terms and labels. [sigh]
As to the use of 'roofing filter' as a term, it feels like it is coincident with the VERY stable 1st LO in more modern HF receivers. In that sort of architecture, the 1st Mixer becomes the major cause of high-amplitude nearby RF carrier IMD problems. That gives Ulrich Rhode a chance for another write-up on high-IP3 mixers for some boosterism of Rhode & Schwarz products. :-)
On the other hand, I've got a working relationship experience with the multiple-conversion Spectrum Analyzers that began appearing in the late 1960s. The first conversion was always upward (anywhere from 1 to 2 GHz) to yield a WIDE input frequency tuning range. After that 1st conversion it was down-conversion to set the final bandwidth. Those first Spectrum Analyzers had 80 to 120 db of dynamic range. It was also very easy to see any IP2 or IP3 products within the instrument itself. There's nothing magical about a Spectrum Analyzer as far as the Front End is concerned, only a careful attention to the Power Budget to avoid any one stage from contributing to IMD...hence the methods apply to any receiver designs.
W4LGH: "I worked in the broadcast industry for many years, and even the small 1k AM stations use digital processing somewhere in their audio chain. I think the sound of the audio in tube rigs that everyone loves comes from the fact that most tube rigs have about 5watts of audio power and used large speakers, the new stuff doesn't."
I think the speaker size matters the most and with that a proper wide audio bandwidth enclosure. As a former Hi-Fi nut (back in the late 1950s) I found the most economical and widest bandwidth, efficient enclosure was a Klipsch-style Corner Horn. Using an LP of Resphighi's "The Pines of Rome" as a test audio, the PEAK power observed was around 4 Watts of AF at an overall sound level that would start making the apartment neighbors itchy. That was with Electro-Voice 8" diameter speakers with a rigid center cone added for a Tweeter. The Hallicrafters SX-28 communcations receiver had a nice-sounding push-pull 6V6 (?) AF output and would produce fine sound into a good 8" (or larger) speaker and enclosure. With the pocket portable radios it IS possible to get AF output stages wideband and with some power but a 2 to 3 inch speaker just cannot Move Air in a small, improper enclosure. The alternative is the incredibly-folded Bose internal horn (possible only with injection molding to form that elaborate horn at reasonable cost). To couple AF to the ear a pair of good headphones is the only alternate to achieving good sound in a relatively small size.
W4LGH: "I to do not live in the past, but it is a big kick, an escape to go back to a time when life was simpler, and I enjoy the quality and workmanship of yester-year. So mething that has long since been lost in todays world of disposable electronics."
I agree on the first, disagree on the second. As one who got into the electronics industry when production workers did point-to-point wiring entirely by hand, I've witnessed the transition to wave soldering and then into the 'cookie oven' for SMDs on PCBs. By observation, the 'hand-point-to-point-wiring' had the most faults off the line. The wave-soldered PCBs had the least, even with the hand-inserted through-hole component PCB designs. SMD components NEED a robot parts placer due to their small size...get off-footprint just a few thousandths of an inch with a ball-grid package and there's an automatic reject. While wave-soldered designs aren't the most compact, I've seen that they are the most uniform. One zip through the long multi-bath and the whole PCB is cleaned, fluxed, soldered, and cleaned again. One operation. At most, 20 seconds per board of about 16 square inches size or so. Cost of drilling and including lots of Vias of the unloaded PCB made the final transition to SMD style with minimum holes and Vias.
I bought my parents a black-and-white TV, a Zenith, in 1959, purchased in the carton out here. When unwrapped, the horizontal sweep just wouldn't lock. After carting over some test equipment from my place, a visual inspection showed one bypass tubular had a lead snipped in two. Soldering together the lead cured it. Some (disgruntled?) worker at the Chicago-area factory had to have done it. So much for their final QC inspection. :-(
I think that 'disposable' is on the verge of buzzword-iness. :-) The incredibly-low labor rates of Asian electronics production workers makes their market price so low that they APPEAR to be 'disposable.' But, that low labor cost can reflect in the DESIGN of products. If the designs are faulty to begin with, the lowest labor cost can't offset so many rejects off the end of the line. Asian injection-molded plastic parts seem to be uniformly excellent. But, it is very easy to check those after a first mold blow...parts fit together or they don't, no instruments needed to tell anyone that. :-)
'Disposable' is in the minds of the product purchasers, not necessarily in the product design itself. Only social scientist-designers can offset that...engineers designing hardware have enough problems. :-)
W4LGH: "I certainly enjoy my new rigs as well, but it is fun to go back, and there is something mystic about watching tubes glow. However living in Florida, the heat factor certainly isn't one of them."
Choosing to live in southern California after growing up in northern Illinois, I agree with you on thermal environments. :-) With the exception of THIS winter in rain-damp, chilly soCal, of course. However, as IERC was once headquartered near beautiful downtown Burbank and made excellent tube shields with fine thermal dissipation, it is difficult to see some of my shielded tubes glow. :-) A single #47 pilot lamp consumes 945 mW to operate at spec but an entire 16x2 character LCD with LED backlight takes less power than that...and tells me lots more. <shrug> To each their own.
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AF6AY on February 24, 2008
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KB1SF posted on 24 Feb 08:
"I'd be interested to know how many old farts waxing eloquently for a return to the "classic rigs" are posting their comments using Radio Shack TRS-80s or even (gasp!) an IBM PC or something similar from that era) to do it with."
They use a personal computer?!? Heck, I thought they SENT CW on the phone lines and e-ham.net did the translation into text! :-)
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N2EY on February 24, 2008
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KB1SF writes: "I'd be interested to know how many old farts waxing eloquently for a return to the "classic rigs" are posting their comments using Radio Shack TRS-80s or even (gasp!) an IBM PC or something similar from that era) to do it with."
Well, I'm not one of those, nor am I asking for a return to anything.
But I do a bit of homebrewing ham gear, as well as computer reclamation. Nothing so old as a TRS-80 or original IBM PC, though.
This was written using a Dell Dimension XPS R400 PII machine - which I intercepted on its way to a dumpster. It's got a 30 GB HD, 384 Mb of RAM (the max the motherboard will handle), an 8 GB nVidia video card, Ethernet card, two CD drives (one a burner), USB 2.0, etc. Runs Win98SE very well. Cost me nothing but the time to assemble it and get it working. It will soon be replaced by a Dell 4100 with 1 GHz PIII processor and 512 Mb of RAM, etc. - another interception.
The monitor is a Dell 17" Trinitron I bought new 10 years ago. Got many, many hours on it without a problem. Printer is an HP692C that cost me $15 some years back in the discount table at Microcenter.
I've got "a few" spares, too, if anything fails.
Sure I could go buy a more-recent computer, but why bother when I find old ones for free that do the job? If I were doing gaming, video editing or 3D CADD rendering, these older boxes would be inadequate, but for email, websurfing, wordprocessing and such applications they're fine.
Plus I'm keeping working computers out of the trash stream, not sending dollars to "offshore" manufacturers, and learning stuff too.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by G3LBS on February 25, 2008
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If you had all re-cycled more things like Jim does the dollar would not have fallen to half a pound.
Buffalo Gil W2/G3LBS
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by VE3GNU on February 25, 2008
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AF9J---I too have a IC-740, and since 1982 and the original owner, and everytime I sit in front of the newer/current rigs and listen---I keep wondering why I would ever want to get rid of it! The ergonomics, receiver 'sound' (in my case I use the PS-20 switching power supply/front-firing speaker combo), and the overall dependability (never yet to a service depot)---in my view, is comparable to some of today's 'wunder-rigs'! I have the FM board, the keyer board, the 455hz and 9mh INRAD SSB filters. Yes, the meter bulb gave out just a little while ago and the Comp. switch has been 'out of commission' for a long time, but hey!---not bad for a 25-year old rig. I have the original bill---$1546.98 Can.---quite an 'extravagance' at the time!
I understand that only 4000 or so were built of this ham-band only rig before the 'general coverage disease' started to set in!
Two years ago I bought the Ten Tec Argonaut V---a modern IF DSP rig for its CW and Filtering capability---very nice to use, but the DSP 'sound' gets to me at times---
Ernie VE3GNU
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Classic Rigs
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by AD5KL on February 25, 2008
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I like to use a small SSTRAN AM transmitter to hear old-time-radio the same way it was heard, on my old 1934 RCA console. That radio has a great sound.
It just isn't the same experience listening to an Ipod.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by K5MO on February 25, 2008
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I suspect 80% of the functions on modern rigs NEVER get used by the majority of purchasers. The new Yaesus look like parodies of ham rigs. It's as if the designers said "how many knobs and controls can we possibly put on the front panel" for the "bling" aspect of it, not because they're useful.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by K3JVB on February 26, 2008
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well , by match up...
I guess that I was not clear. If I were a contest op.
I would not use my Swan staion. But for rag chews on 40 or 75, or any other band , for that matter it is a great rig. The pi-network is very forgiving, and the audio from this old rig is very nice...on tx and rx
And a little pre warm up drift , But after 20 minutes most of them settle down.
And yes, I just like the older stuff. Maybe another era. But I think the late 60's and into the 70's Ham gear jumped a quantum leap !
Keep the older gear on the air !
73
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by WD9FUM on February 26, 2008
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RE: Very forgiving pi-networks.
Ain't that the truth! I think I could load up a wet noodle with my TR4!
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by VE5PV on February 26, 2008
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My post is in reference to "Nixie Tube", I think it's human nature to reflect on the "good old days",the tangible bench marks are things which at the time were not attainable for most...in any case don't forget this is not a dress rehearsal...ENJOY!!
73...Gerard VA6ZZZ/VE5FF
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N2EY on February 26, 2008
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K5MO writes: "I suspect 80% of the functions on modern rigs NEVER get used by the majority of purchasers."
You're probably right.
K5MO: "The new Yaesus look like parodies of ham rigs."
What *should* a ham rig look like?
K5MO: "It's as if the designers said "how many knobs and controls can we possibly put on the front panel" for the "bling" aspect of it, not because they're useful."
Maybe not.
In the bad old days, every feature you added to a rig meant more hardware, which meant more cost. So every rig design was a compromise between features and cost.
By "features", I mean things besides basic radio performance. For example, in the old days the only way to set a rig's frequency was to turn the tuning knob. In modern rigs, you can still do that - or you can enter the frequency on a keypad, retrieve it from a memory, send it to the rig via serial, USB or even Ethernet link, etc.
But with modern rigs that use microcontrollers (some would say "embedded computers"), DSP, etc., adding features doesn't cost much, and that cost is mostly in software.
For example, if you wanted different IF filter bandwidths, AGC characteristics, and BFO settings in old rigs, you needed different filters, switchable hardware, and a BFO knob. In a modern rig with DSP, all those features and much more are software parameters.
Since the features don't cost much, the rigmakers pile in everything they can think of. While almost nobody will use every feature, different folks will use different subsets of the features. So a rig can theoretically appeal to the widest market without costing more.
The problem then becomes how you select and control all those features. Some rigs use systems where the same knob, button or switch controls several things. This cuts down on the number of things on the panel but means you have to remember all the functions of each knob, button or switch. (A lot of hams call this sort of thing "menus".) And a considerable number of hams really don't like that sort of interface.
So what Yaesu has done is to put a zillion buttons, knobs and switches on the panel in an attempt to minimize the menus.
The alternative is to remove features, but will the market accept that?
73 de Jim, N2EY
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by KK7JD on February 26, 2008
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Newer rigs have gained, IMO, primarily in: compactness; efficiency; frequency agility; and strong
signal performance (receivers). These are all important gains; but most else is largely reducable to
"bells and whistles".
Older gear often had the virtues of: mechanical quality; servicability in terms of troubleshooting, repairing and parts findability; tended to be electrically "tough" and forgiving; often had a high degree of core performance; sometimes had superior performance in terms of audio quality (both transmitters and receivers); some receivers had
lower noise floors than ANY (see Sherwood Engineering receiver test comparison table)on the market today;
often had strong signal and selectivity performance
similar to best modern gear; and on a more subjective note: often posessed a "personality" and sense of aesthetic distinction in contrast to most of todays black plastic surface-mount componet-filled and software intensive wonder boxes.
And guess what?: many of the 30+ year old rigs are actually WORTH SOMETHING on the open market. And a fella can still find most parts for the things too.
Such a future awaiting most contemporary $3-5K wonder radios? I doubt it. At some point it will just be a sad walk to the dumpster due to absolute irreparability.
The biggest killer and weakness of the old rigs BY FAR, was, and remains the dreaded: MULTI-LAYER WAFER
SWITCH FAILURE!!! This can bring and end to the fun
PRONTO! Chances are you will never find a suitable replacement wafer switch, or be able to effectively repair the old one either. Fortunately many have proven to be reasonably reliable over time, but it is always there looming over your head. The HRO receiver
owners need not dread --LONG LIVE PLUG IN COILS! Ha!
-Thomas
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AF6AY on February 26, 2008
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KK7JD posted on 26 Feb 08:
"Newer rigs have gained, IMO, primarily in: compactness; efficiency; frequency agility; and strong signal performance (receivers). These are all important gains; but most else is largely reducable to "bells and whistles"."
LONGEVITY is not a 'bells and whistles.' Modern radio equipment has far longer life than old tube architecture designs.
..................
KK7JD: "Older gear often had the virtues of: mechanical quality; servicability in terms of troubleshooting, repairing and parts findability;"
Good grief...with point-to-point wiring and NO such thing as a PCB, OF COURSE it was 'open' for serviceability. :-)
But, 'mechanical quality' depended on the model and which ME did the design and how much the managers okayed a mechanical structure...at least until to the end of the 50s.
If you think an R390 receiver is 'easy to service,' you'd best study the maze of gears, cams, shafts, and geneva wheels in its tuning system. The Autotune version, R391, is a bit worse. That was designed for a harsh military environment and definitely NOT a product for a commercial, consumer-electronics market. [been there, done that...] The R390 and R387 et al were 'set-and-forget' radios, working very well in that application.
Once consumer electronics production got going after WWII, better production planning introduced lots and lots of house-number special parts, chiefly mechanical ones. Those are unobtainable now. By the time of introduction of more plastic-molded parts (in the 50s) to cheapies such as the All-American Five, new models of the same make would use different special parts and the replacements would soon disappear.
KK7JD: "...transmitters and receivers); some receivers had lower noise floors than ANY (see Sherwood Engineering receiver test comparison table)on the market today; often had strong signal and selectivity performance similar to best modern gear; ..."
Can't agree with you there for receivers built for 30 MHz and under tuning ranges. In comparison with high-f_t BJTs the equivalent noise resistance (principally in the RF Amplifier) compared with the BJT means the older tube design is naturally noisier than the semiconductor design. Go back to any of the older electronics texts, especially the Radiotron Designers Handbook from Australia (pre-WWII or post-WWII).
Yes, some VERY low noise figure 2m RF amplifiers have been built and publicized in amateur radio magazines, all of them optimized for one relatively narrow bandwidth. Grounded-grid triode arrangement with high-gm triodes. NOT for the consumer-side ham market that wants only those things that work below 30m.
.........
KK7JD: "At some point it will just be a sad walk to the dumpster due to absolute irreparability."
That awaits EVERYONE...no exceptions. :-)
.........
KK7JD: "The biggest killer and weakness of the old rigs BY FAR, was, and remains the dreaded: MULTI-LAYER WAFER SWITCH FAILURE!!! This can bring and end to the fun PRONTO! Chances are you will never find a suitable replacement wafer switch, or be able to effectively repair the old one either. Fortunately many have proven to be reasonably reliable over time, but it is always there looming over your head. The HRO receiver
owners need not dread --LONG LIVE PLUG IN COILS! Ha!"
National Radio Company's HRO series was designed primarily for the commercial and military market. The end goal was as a 'set-and-forget' receiver that was expected to remain on-frequency for long periods of time. But, to use one in typical band-surfing amateur operation, one had to either memorize a tuning curve or keep referring to the printed one. That nice tuning knob-dial was smooth but had NO real relation to frequency. That had to wait for Collins and RACAL to show how it should have been done in the 1950s.
The common rotary switch wafer design of older days was essentially cheap, plus being easily modifiable for 'specials' (orderable in large lots for manufacturers). It was handy and very adaptable to point-to-point wiring. A basic problem with nearly all of them is that the contacts are fully exposed to air. Those that survive and remain relatively unaffected have also been designed into enclosures which restrict air movement. For some reason, rotary switch order-placers wanted silver as a plating. They didn't connect to the fact that silver oxidizes rather quickly. Since such order-placers weren't acquainted with the microwave part of the industry, they didn't know of better plating methods such as rhodium flash over silver (common to coaxial connectors). Perhaps the longest-surviving rotary switch wafer design was done by CTS (formerly Chicago Telephone Supply) which added a clear plastic shield over the center of each side of a wafer. Those cost more than a conventional wafer but were worth it in fewer rejects in production and on into QC...plus fewer service calls by the customer later.
But, the rotary-switch market got aced out by the end of the 70s when HF and below radios started using diode switches controlled by voltages that were either on or off. Lower-voltage BJTs and FETs didn't have to worry about +250 V plate potentials for RF and Mixer plate resonant circuit switching. 'Digital' switching lent itself to microprocessor control where the microprocessor (or near equivalents) was taking over a host of different control functions from the front panel to a radio's innards. Cost AND complexity dropped almost a whole plateau when that was done. Besides, point-to-point wiring was dropped considerably in favor of the PCB with all the 'wiring' done in one shot. It all sufficed to be able to do more at less cost.
Those who need to switch heavy currents and high voltages can use relays. Small compact relays with low operating power are very common in automotive use now. Check out the Antenna Autotuner L and C switching for an example. Compare the cost of several relays and selected fixed capacitors with a 'replacement' variable capacitor and you will find the cost favors the relay and fixed capacitor arrangement.
Now some folk just love mechanical complexity and 'precision workmanship.' Take wristwatches as an example. My late Dad loved timepieces and gave me a nice Omega wristwatch for my birthday a year before he passed on. Lovely timepiece and fairly accurate...within a couple minutes each 24 hours. A decade later it had to be repaired and the best estimate I got was $80. A Timex quartz watch available at a drug store was $20 and its accuracy was within a couple seconds a day. The Timex had sufficient bling for attractiveness but all I needed was an easy, portable device to tell time. Today I've got a black plastic case radio watch that checks in with WWVB every night and is within a second of correct time EVERY day. Not only that, it will reset itself for 'savings' time changeover. Cost was a mere $30. The battery will last for about 7 years. Spending $500 for blingy all-mechanical wristwatches is economically dumb to me. Others mileage varies.
In radio stuff, one has to decide which is best: Restore old things to their genuine 'purity' (and spending lots of expensive personal time in doing so) or to spend money for some new thing that has at least a decade of operating life ahead of it...and has lots of good features that the old things never had. One isn't necessarily 'better' than the other but one also has to go by what they WANT to do in terms of operating.
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N2EY on February 27, 2008
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"Older gear often had the virtues of:....some receivers had
lower noise floors than ANY (see Sherwood Engineering receiver test comparison table)on the market today"
This is true of a few HF receivers like the Collins 75S-3B, and the Drake R-4C as the Sherwood Engineering measurements prove.
www.sherweng.com
However, on HF with a reasonable antenna at most sites, there is rarely a need for the lowest possible noise floor, because the antenna noise is so much higher.
"And a fella can still find most parts for the things too.
Such a future awaiting most contemporary $3-5K wonder radios? I doubt it. At some point it will just be a sad walk to the dumpster due to absolute irreparability."
Maybe not.
In many cases, repair of older sets is done by cannibalizing/transplanting parts from other sets with bigger problems. This can be done with almost any piece of equipment; what limits the practicality is the cost of the "donor" rigs. But as they get older, the prices come down.
"The biggest killer and weakness of the old rigs BY FAR, was, and remains the dreaded: MULTI-LAYER WAFER
SWITCH FAILURE!!! This can bring and end to the fun
PRONTO! Chances are you will never find a suitable replacement wafer switch, or be able to effectively repair the old one either."
That hasn't been my experience at all. Repair/replacement is mostly a matter of having a big enough parts pile....
The truth is that almost any rig can be kept functional almost indefinitely if somebody is willing to invest the space, time and effort to acquire a stock of parts and the tools, skills and info to fix what breaks.
Some may think that vacuum tubes are unreliable, but in fact their usable lives are so long (if not abused) that a relatively small stock of spares will outlast their owner. In amateur radio service, we tend to use our rigs an average of few hours a day at most, so it takes decades to get to the 10,000 hour mark.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by KD8EZU on February 27, 2008
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I'm a new ham ( 1 year ) at 50 years of age and like the original poster of this article fondly remember how "beautiful" the boat anchors were. WIth that said and done ,thats just my perspective and one of the reasons I have boat achors. The second reason ( and maybe the real reason ) is AFFORDABILITY!.
With two boys in college I needed an affordable way to finally get into ham radio. Not "get back into" but to initally get into the hobby. The answer? Mr. FT-101B. I made the mistake of buying on ebay, the rig arrive semi-smashed but luckily worked. This is a testament to the toughness of the older rigs. I have since sold that and bought a TS-820S, a FT-101E, and was given a TS-440S as a gift from a ham friend in Calif. Yes.., GIVEN!. The two tub rigs were revamped with tubes, capacitors and anything else I thought they'd need ( although they worked fine as recieved initially). You know what?
They transmit and recieve well enough for me to have worked many, many countries. I almost always get a good signal or audio report, and I can hear almost every station that everyone else can. Because of their cost, I can have several, and there's no such thing as too many radios, just not enough power plugs or mikes to use with them!!.
Are they superior or equal to newer rigs. Of course not!! They're 30 + years old. Would I like a modern radio. Of course I would but at $1000 to $10,000 I'll pass. I make absolutely no apologies for saying that I have bills up the kazoo, and cannot afford a new radio.
I enjoy my boat anchors and they serve me exceedingly well. I will be forever grateful for them being affordable to get me into this great hobby.
For a new ham I would recommend 1) a boat anchor to learn repairs ( helped me to learn ),2) a modern inexpensive rig ( so they don't get discouraged ) ,3)learning CW.
I love and will always love the way a Collins rig looks, but also love the way an IC-7800 looks too.
Give me both and I'll leave you alone.
Great article and worthy of discussion.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AF6AY on February 27, 2008
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N2EY posted on 27 Feb 08:
KK7JD: "The biggest killer and weakness of the old rigs BY FAR, was, and remains the dreaded: MULTI-LAYER WAFER SWITCH FAILURE!!! This can bring and end to the fun PRONTO! Chances are you will never find a suitable replacement wafer switch, or be able to effectively repair the old one either."
"That hasn't been my experience at all."
Tsk, then you haven't had enough experience. Had you been as hands-on to the innards of older radios as you (unspecifically) claim, you would have found LOTS of rotary switch wafers in ready-builts that had NON-standard rotors. Most of those on 'communications' receivers involved an extra rotor contact that shorted all the stator connections NOT selected by the normal rotor contact. Some in instruments for test involved rather fancy rotor contact arrangements which were decidedly NOT standard or directly-replaceable. Go back to the Hallicrafters SX-28 era before WWII and proceed forward until about the 1970s
for many examples.
Paper-phenolic substrates were common in such rotary switch wafers and those could, with age, delaminate and make the stator contacts loose. Ceramic wafer substrates could crack under mishandling and be impossible to glue back together...even with the best epoxoids.
..........
N2EY: "Repair/replacement is mostly a matter of having a big enough parts pile...."
Only if you have the full facilities of Newark, Allied, Hamilton-Avnet, etc. :-)
..........
N2EY: "The truth is that almost any rig can be kept functional almost indefinitely if somebody is willing to invest the space, time and effort to acquire a stock of parts and the tools, skills and info to fix what breaks."
That's a truly lovely myth. Let's take TRANSFORMERS for tube-architecture radios. Can you buy a TRUE replacement of a multiple-secondary power transformer today? Fine, just take out a small loan at the bank and you can get any CUSTOM 50/60 Hz power transformer you want. Yes, I can get SOME stock-equivalents from one supplier in Canada (a division of Halliburton) but those CO$T a LOT more than anything from Stancor or Triad way back in time. A single major supplier today for SOME models and less than a half-dozen custom transformer houses.
I've wound one transformer from scratch, re-wound three others in my hobby experience. While all were successful, they involved PARTS that were NOT commonly in a junkbox...such as 'fish paper' (very thin, used between layers), various thin insulating papers for use between whole secondary windings. Each one took at least 50 hours to complete or a total of about five months of doing nothing else in the workshop but futzing with those four transformers. Sorry, nearly all of the off-the-shelf power transformers these days have LOW voltage secondaries. Very, very few "plate-filament" combos on any resellers shelves today.
Need a really-multiple-secondary power transformer for an early Tektronix scope? Like the Models 310 to 567? Good luck again. Another company in Canada MIGHT have a replacement, but that's not a guarantee. I know (from calibration work) that those Tek power transformers (all subcontracted with a smaller specialty house) have a GOOD lifetime but, again, that doesn't mean they are all perfect.
Care to try 'repairing' a POTTED power transformer from some old WWII surplus radio? Rotsa ruck, GI. It will take gallons of solvent and a couple of weeks just to get the transformer out of its can and cleaned off enough to START rewinding. I know someone who did that...and then didn't have enough potting material to fill up the can once done. The casting plastic he used in place of a true potting material kept too much heat IN and the rewound transformer failed after a year. I said it was not an easy task but he scoffed at that at the beginning...became a believer that I wasn't fooling around later.
...........
N2EY: "Some may think that vacuum tubes are unreliable, but in fact their usable lives are so long (if not abused) that a relatively small stock of spares will outlast their owner.
Yes and no. If you go really deep into vacuum tube literature, try looking at LEAK figures for various structures and metal-glass seals. Seals are NOT perfect. Some tubes can wind up failures just from sitting around unused for decades. I have a couple OB2 shunt regulators that fell out of spec just from sitting around the workshop, unused, for three decades; I'd tested those in a lab way back and still had the data. One failed low, one high. Shunt regulators are perfect heat wasters anyway so I just redesigned the instrument power supply into a better series regulator.
...........
N2EY: "In amateur radio service, we tend to use our rigs an average of few hours a day at most, so it takes decades to get to the 10,000 hour mark."
Does it? And why do you say 'we' kimosabe? 10,000 hours at 2 hours a day every day is 5000 days. Accounting for leap years, that's 13.7 years, not quite a plural of 'decade.' The longer you operate any day the greater the chances of a sudden surge happening on the AC primary power line. That leads to sudden stresses on that filament winding. [not the 'heater' Jimmy, the 'heater' involves the cathode and the cathode can take lots more stress than any filament]
Vacuum tube technical data on filament life has been around for decades. Lowering the filament voltage to -10% of nominal ought to double a vacuum tube life. The change in gm or mu is only around -5% so most applications can get away with it. BTW, do NOT expect each and every power transformer with a 'filament' winding secondary to be EXACTLY 6.3 VAC RMS. Those old transformers were never prefect. AC power line voltage changes were another variable that could make the error greater.
..............
Back in the late 1970s I got acquainted with a hobbyist who modified an entire Collins 75A receiver with FETs and solid-state components. Forgot whether he was a licensed amateur, but he was an engineer with some experience. Kept the exterior and chassis, used only the tube filament supply windings for a new power supply (no transformer replacement). Some of the FETs were on little tube-base plug-in assembles (another hard-to-get item now), some were wired on small PCBs under the chassis. Kept the look-and-feel of a Boat Anchor but was instant-on and didn't need a wait for a warm-up drift. A lot cooler overall. Tested out as good as the original tube model.
73, Len AF6AY
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by W7LV on February 27, 2008
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The SX-28A I got for mowing the local drive-in and a few dollars in 1963 worked like a champ, got me plenty of CW to learn on and was just, as they say now, "Too cool for School."
It's also, with a 10" speaker and enclosure I brewed up, the device upon which I first heard The Beatles via BBC shortwave in 1963.
Saw one on eBay go for four digits last year and thought that the Chiropractic bill after moving it could equal that.
Do I miss the yellow glow of it, or my TR4C or 4-Line?
A little, on cold winter nights. But I also miss my 7 MPG 1964 Pontiac GTO, too.
Want to to get your Nostalgia Meter peaked? Go to a reunion and see what your High School Sweetie looks like 40 years later!
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by AF6AY on February 28, 2008
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W7LV wrote on 28 Feb 08:
"Want to to get your Nostalgia Meter peaked? Go to a reunion and see what your High School Sweetie looks like 40 years later!"
My high school sweetie and I attended our Big 50 high school Reunion in 2001 together. As husband and wife. :-)
........
In 2005 we drove back to that area for my wife's 50th Anniversary of graduation from Beloit College in Wisconsin. Much earlier a Beloit instructor had put together a guide for other instructors on what incoming Freshmen have NOT experienced in their life. Those are a bit surprising (perhaps) to us older folk. It's been repeated on the Internet plus several blogs since then.
Applying that to amateur radio might be an eye-opener to some, also. For example, in 1968 (40 years ago), there wasn't much in the way of precise frequency control except by one quartz crystal per frequency. Oh, sure there were VFOs and a few had a matrix of crystals switched in to a mixer to create 'channels' of many more fixed frequencies. The PLL had yet to appear in any large scale for frequency control, certainly not any DDS. Large-scale integrated circuits were only just starting to appear. Amateur radio was largely analog in architecture. Doubler and tripler tube circuits were used to allow lower-frequency crystals to operate on higher HF ham bands.
LEDs or LCDs for displays? Too expensive, too rare for consumer electronics, not yet standardized for wide application. For any sort of graphics display it had to be a CRT and even small 10 inch color CRTs were expensive. 'Pilot lights' were still neon or incandescent, dominating pilot instrument panels, telephone switchboards, and a few radio dials.
Personal computers? Forget it. It would take another decade before the PCs started to appear for the computer hobbyists and a dozen years for the IBM PC to appear on that market. Internet? Sorry, but the only big network was ARPANET running off mainframe computers; the BBSs (that sparked the world wide web) were only dreams of a few in 1968. Gates and Allen hadn't yet conceived of the partnership that became Microsoft.
Heath Company was growing and so was the 'Knight' line of kits, plus a few others. None are around now. Neither is Hallicrafters. Collins Radio was considering getting out of the amateur radio market. National Radio was shifting over to military radios. The CB craze was hitting the highways with all those off-shore designed-and-made radios. Lots of transistors capable of working at HF had gotten on the market. Color TV was an IN thing with consumer electronics as well as stereo sound FM broadcasting. Commercial international communications were using the first of the geosynchronous communications satellites and adding to our newly-existing North American telephone and TV relay. "Overseas radiotelephone" via HF was becoming a losing proposition for intercontinental providers.
Public Safety radio services had low-VHF two-way radios in 1968 and designer-manufacturers of those were pioneering the use of semiconductors at VHF, perhaps above that. Larger businesses could afford some of those. Some of that design experience would later bleed over to amateur radio. Civil aviation radio service had been at VHF for 13 years
internationally but was still ruled by tubes in design. TV broadcasting was desiring more UHF channels. Standard Coil tuners dominated TV receivers and Blonder-Tongue was making money with UHF to VHF converters. Video recording was still too expensive for ordinary consumers. Ampex was trying but two Japanese corporations would later dominate. The 'LP' disk was at the height of 'Hi-Fi' sound recorded material but some magnetic tape decks were getting down in price for the consumer market. Forget the CD or the DVD...those were still laboratory curiosities, still under experimentation.
Man-made quartz crystal growth had finally achieved success...aided by the demand for color sub-carrier oscillator-AFC in both NTSC and PAL TV receivers, plus the ramp-up for CB production off-shore. The first of the 'crystal filters' at HF for high-IF application had begun. The ubiquitous quartz wristwatch hadn't appeared yet since the IC part of semiconductor industry was still growing...just not enough for a $20 Timex quartz wristwatch purchaseable at a drug store 15 years later.
Batteries themselves were ruled by lead-acid type for heavy currents and variations of the Leclanche cell (carbon-zinc) for lower currents. Nickel-metal-hydride small batteries weren't quite marketable yet but there was promise for them as rechargeables. Lithium-ion rechargeables were still largely confined to the laboratory but electrochemistry was improving all the time. Introduction of 'transistorized' BC radios had already made the combination A-B-C battery packs obsolete. Switching power supplies for B+ were noisy, RFI-intensive 'inverters' that were just two-transistor VLF oscillators, no regulation at all.
Nostalgia? For what? I got into HF communications 55 years ago and have seen a few evolutions (not to mention revolutions) in electronics technology since then. An SX-28 is, to me, aesthetically pleasing, but it IS an old design, however good it worked at the time. If you want a hernia-inducing boat anchor of a piece of test equipment, lift an HP 524 frequency counter that tops out at 10 MHz...beats any tube receiver for sheer weight. Ten years ago I used a handheld 1.3 GHz frequency meter no bigger than a modern HT. Thanks, but I'll keep my wife and whatever modern marvels of electronics I have and appreciate them a lot more.
As someone said once, "Nostalgia ain't what it used to be..." :-)
73, Len AF6AY
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by HARV on February 29, 2008
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Why is it so easy to ridicule someones opinion about the classic radios...if it wasn't for the older radios we wouldn't have the newer radios....These radios can still do the job and be a lot of fun....Harv K5RIP
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by K7PEH on February 29, 2008
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This hobby does have an advantage over many other technology based hobbies. The supporting infrastructure never becomes obsolete. A radio wave sent by some old boat anchor can be received by some modern solid-state rig without any problems and visa-versa (usually with a few exceptions). Not so with other hobbies. For example, where do you buy floppy diskettes anymore even if you had a computer to read them; or, RS-232 interfaces are almost obsolete (and, they should be) and if you love music how do you go about buying a great vinyl LP platter of Nora Jones singing quiet jazz even if you do have a turntable to play it on.
Good thing that Electromagnetic Phenomena does not change along with advancing technology and of course that is why we even are having this discussion. Otherwise, boat anchors would indeed be boat anchors.
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by K1DA on February 29, 2008
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Tube seals??? I have some receiving tubes from weather balloon boxes I found washed up on the BEACH
when I was a kid (they were always banged up from hitting the rocks so I didn't send them back as instructed -besides they were like mana from heaven for a kid building superregens) that still work fine!
We lived near a large-now closed Naval Aviation facility and the carriers did a lot of flight training not far offshore.
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by K1DA on February 29, 2008
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"Pushing a menu button is 'operating' a radio"?
How about knowing enough about the stuff that you can tune a tube rig up? I cah push a menu button on a bleeping MICROWAVE OVEN if I want that kind of thrill. In fact, pushing a menu button and bragging about it is a lot like the junior super technoids who claim to have "built their own" computer..
sounds wicked hard till you find out how standardized
the plug in stuff is. Man, I'm REALLY OPERATING when I push that menu button for the blanker.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AF6AY on February 29, 2008
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K1DA tried to push someone's buttons on 29 Feb 08"
"Pushing a menu button is 'operating' a radio"?
Yes, it is. No different than fiddling with some knob-equipped control or flicking a toggle switch.
K1DA: "How about knowing enough about the stuff that you can tune a tube rig up?"
Yeah, how about that? Case in point from my experience:
In early February 1953 I was assigned to Transmitters (Company C, 8235th AU then known as the 71st Signal Service Battalion). My MOS was microwave radio relay operator-maintainer and did NOT have any training in 'tuning up an HF tube rig." Did have on tuning up VHF and UHF and microwave tube rigs but those were not the same animal. Since me and others were there, we got short, quick on-the-job training in 'tuning up (HF) tube rigs' ranging from 1 KW to 15 KW power output. Three of us 'newbies' got a whole hour lecture, demo, and individual hands-on instruction of 'dipping the plate, peaking the grid' on the venerable (at that time) BC-339 1 KW CW transmitter. That particular one was down for a week for a network change so it was essentially spare at the time. The station only had 36 HF transmitters in early 1953. The next day I did my first real QSY on another BC-339. I had never done that before.
There was much more instruction on the ACAN network worldwide organization and the organization of that particular station...like the separate receiving site, Control at another location that gave us orders over the TTY order-wire, what to do when certain orders came in over that order-wire, what to do in emergencies or hostilities breaking out, etc., etc.
'Training' on the 10 KW BC-340 was probably less than an hour but, being water-cooled, we got more info on what to look for on coolant (water), the slight differences of the BC-339 tuning that drove the BC-340 Power Amplifier. 'Training' on the 15 KW Press Wireless was essentially mechanical in how to quickly switch the PA's tank coil shorting assemblies for other frequencies. Every QSY we did HAD to be done quickly to optimize ON-time and handle the slow (60 WPM) RTTY sent over every 'CW' transmitter. NO radio circuits were on-off-keying CW...it was all FSK TTY or 12 KHz SSB with combined TTY and voice (plus one for AM voice only for the seldom-used FEC HQ air-mobile circuit).
On top of that, we had to 'train' on the Exciters that did the real RTTY modulation, learn what the Mark and Space were and how to set up each one RF-wise. 'Spread' (the frequency shift) was then 850 cycles ('Hz' wasn't in use yet) and we audibly 'beat' the Space shift against an 850 cycle amplified tuning fork oscillator. Three dozen Exciters were behind the central operating console and all radio frequencies in-use had quartz crystals to lock the Mark...must have been over a hundred crystals in a cabinet kept warm by a couple of light bulbs...none of those were from any box of crystals supplied with more mobile, small VHF radios of WWII.
NONE of that was done in any 'classroom' environment. It was ALL the REAL stuff. We HAD to learn...quick...or possibly find ourselves reassigned to some infantry outfit (none of us were). The Korean War was still in process although it was winding down to the Truce of July in that year. We all took to our tasks seriously underneath the banter of very young men doing things we might not want to do otherwise.
In short, all the palaver, the braggadoccio about 'operating a tube rig' is a bunch of BS to me. Been there, done that, literally, back when vacuum tubes were the ONLY active device for RF power. 'Dip the plate, peak the grid' is still a primary rule but it is fast becoming OBSOLETE in an era where broadband solid-state HF power amplifiers do NOT need all the knob-tweaking of tuning. Perhaps you want hand-cranked starters on autos? [been there, done that too, damn glad I never have to do it again!]
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K1DA: "I cah push a menu button on a bleeping MICROWAVE OVEN if I want that kind of thrill."
If one likes to cook and experiment with some new dish, the ubiquitous microwave oven IS a very handy appliance. I used to do that before I got married; my wife is now the experimenter of new dishes and 'owns' the kitchen. :-) I started occaisonal special cooking back with gas ranges and only-analog temperature controls with finger burns to test the oven temperature. Thank you, I'll take the assist from electronic sensors and controls that set temperature ACCURATELY, like the recipe says one should for a particular dish.
............
K1DA: "In fact, pushing a menu button and bragging about it is a lot like the junior super technoids who claim to have "built their own" computer.."
Well, back in 1976 I started DESIGNING and MAKING my own personal computer out of TTL devices. No problem on circuitry...I still had to learn ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE to program the 'monitor' ROM that modern PCs call a 'BIOS.' I bought a SwTP kit because it was also M6800 oriented, had a much neater PCB, and the Monitor ROM was already programmed. Mass-storage had to be a modified audio cassette because the 5" floppy drives and its operating system went beyond my hobby budget at the time.
K1DA: "sounds wicked hard till you find out how standardized the plug in stuff is."
So...you do NOT like standardization? Do you make your own light bulb bases when you have to change one? No? Bulb bases are made to cooperative industry standards. No diety made such standards de facto. You want everyone to begin AT THE BEGINNING with each new technology?!? That's hooey. Been there, done that too. I thank God that humans DO cooperate and make standardization EASY for the rest of us. So, an 'IBM' PC is standardized in its major component sub-systems? So what? Can YOU design and fabricate a 250 GB hard drive for your computer? Grind the glass memory disk, coat it with the right magnetic material, build the R/W heads and their 'floating' head assembly, then design and fabricate all the electronics which have to interface with the mother board and work with other peripherals, then write ALL the associated software that makes it all work? No? Too hard? For me it is because I've never gone THAT far. I'm thankful that some companies HAVE done that and produce a product that is reasonable in cost and can, truly, 'plug and play.' I am OPERATING such an HD right now. :-)
So, maybe you are one of those old-timers who DEMANDS that all BUILD their own, preferrably from the paper design upwards? I did a MOPA-style 2-tube transmitter many many years ago as a demo unit for another for his class (well before I got my amateur license). Not a big thing but it was NOT a carbon copy of dozens of similar 2-tube MOPAs from the Handbook. I then KNEW how to do it and did it. The other a tube crystal-matrix switching (no PLL then) AM CB transceiver as a prototype for proposed production. From the paper pad onward, all the wiring, all the metalwork, all my own design. Too late on the CB transceiver even though it was well within spec...the beginning of the off-shore CB influx had begun and it wasn't possible to compete using USA labor rates with that one. It was a fun project, though. So, I've 'been there and done pretty much of that,' too. :-)
K1DA: "Man, I'm REALLY OPERATING when I push that menu button for the blanker."
You need some help replacing the button with a TOGGLE SWITCH? :-)
In some of my consulting tasks, I've had access to a lovely DSO that does have a menu system for all its myriad functions. I can OPERATE that one...and do a LOT of things with it, even get paper printouts of the displays. No more messy Polaroid film packs with huge cameras stuck on the front. I started in using the Tektronix 511AD analog scope back in late 1954 and could OPERATE that one no sweat. I can OPERATE my present home scope, a 60 MHz (Protek) analog type. The MENU on the commercial DSO also has a rotary knob for selecting a function...and what a particular button will do. Is that OPERATING a scope or not? :-)
The MENU system on my Icom 746Pro is complicated. I still have to keep the large operating manual handy to keep my memory straight on a few functions of that. It is different than my antenna autotuner and different than my Uniden scanner. My MFJ Antenna Anlyzer has its own little unique MENU cum display. The MENU system on our 2005 Chebby Malibu MAXX's DIC (Driver Information Center...:-) has its own system. Our wired telephone and separate cordless phone have their own different MENU systems, both with little LCD readout panels. The home music (AM-FM) system has its own MENU. Our Amana microwave has its own MENU system. My wife (a non-radio person) and I can both use the car, phone, and appliance MENUs without problem to OPERATE them. Plus, we were both late in life when we got all of them. Neither one of us has ever pretended we are 'outstanding' OPERATORS of anything. We just USE what we have and enjoy them.
I doubt I'll ever take up on-off-keying CW by morse code...which COULD be considered OPERATING a radio. But, 55 years ago, I learned (on-the-job) how to OPERATE RTTY and voice transmitters. Military morse code mode was fast becoming passe' then and the BIG traffic handlers used TTYs. Like it or no, morse code mode is becoming OBSOLETE for message handling. I know how to OPERATE lots of things. Control systems of many kinds have evolved to small MENU systems thanks to electronics technology increases. I am very thankful for that, even if a function activation requires only a single BUTTON push. I'll call that OPERATING, thank you. Evolution has started, time to get with the program and go on with life...and OPERATING radios. [sigh]
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by NI0C on February 29, 2008
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K1DA:
Len, AF6AY, has already provided an excellent answer to you. However, since you were obviously referring to a Feb. 18 posting of mine above, I'll give you a few minutes of my time.
It is laughable that you would think that anyone would brag about turning on a noise blanker on a radio. It would be equally laughable for anyone to boast about performing the old "dip the plate current" routine. In my very first Novice station that I setup at age 14, I actually employed a knife switch to changeover from transmit to receive. I think I used that for about a week before purchasing a relay.
And so it goes. I've been improving my stations ever since then. That includes using radios with (gasp) those dreaded menus-- you know that there newfangled transistorized stuff. Although I've been known to brag about the results I've achieved with my stations, it would never occur to me to brag about the motions I went through along the way.
I also liked something Len said in an earlier post: "Nostalgia ain't what it used to be."
73,
Chuck NI0C
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by K7PEH on February 29, 2008
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Touche'.
Great comments you guys on the "come-along" from K1DA.
Chuck says, "In my very first Novice station that I setup at age 14, I actually employed a knife switch to changeover from transmit to receive. I think I used that for about a week before purchasing a relay."
You just reminded me that I too had a knife switch as my T/R for my Novice rig. I never did replace it but I sure do wish I still had it. It was one heavy-duty knife switch.
I too can brag -- I am experienced at throwing a knife switch. Man, those were the days -- electricity was so crude back then you could see the electrons flowing in the wire and I was so good at my knife switch that I could time it just right so as to open the circuit without splitting any electrons -- I mean, I opened that sucker right in between the electrons and they couldn't help but stop in their tracks.
In the movie "The Day The Earth Stood Still", Klatu, the alien from space, would operate his communication device on his flying saucer merely by moving his hands over the surface of various objects. No physical touch was needed. No knobs to twirl, no buttons to push, no menus to click through, and definitely no Dip-and-peak tuning operations. So, that is our future. And, if that is our future then we who operate the modern Icom, Yaesu, Kenwood, Ten Tec, or Elecraft rig and push buttons and do a menu lookup here and there are doing it the old fashioned way. I mean, if we are appliance operators, the ham operators of the future are pansy kool-aid drinkers who don't know nuthin.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by KG6UTS on February 29, 2008
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...maybe the smoke was from lack of maintenance? I have modern rigs and work in global network communications but still get great enjoyment from BoatAnchors. I've found the folks who work on and use the old gear to be a pretty mannerly lot, some times more so than the regular Ham population. Just an observation.
Ed KG6UTS
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by K5MO on February 29, 2008
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"I have a couple OB2 shunt regulators that fell out of spec just from sitting around the workshop, unused, for three decades"
Gee, only three decades? Hard to get good parts these days! :-)
"Fell out of spec" really has no relation to "will they work find in typical boatanchor radio applications", which is the real issue.
John K5MO
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by W4LGH on February 29, 2008
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K7PEH said..."the ham operators of the future are pansy kool-aid drinkers who don't know nuthin."
Exactly! Beam me up Scotty..there is no intelligent
life here. Phazers on Stun... >>>> P O O F <<<<
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by NI0C on March 1, 2008
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Wow Phil-- full QSK with a knife switch for antenna changeover-- what a guy!
73,
Chuck NI0C
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N2EY on March 1, 2008
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K1DA writes: "Pushing a menu button is 'operating' a radio"?
Yes, it is.
K1DA: "How about knowing enough about the stuff that you can tune a tube rig up?"
That too. And a whole bunch more. I can do both and everything in between - can you?
K1DA: "In fact, pushing a menu button and bragging about it is a lot like the junior super technoids who claim to have "built their own" computer..
sounds wicked hard till you find out how standardized
the plug in stuff is."
Have you ever assembled a computer? Got all the parts tested, installed and working, loaded and configured, the software, turned what was a pile of discarded stuff into a working machine? I've done it plenty of times, including the computer used to write this post.
Lots of fun and saved me money too.
As for noise blankers and menus, check out the new Elecraft K3 and how many noise-blanker and DSP noise reduction option combinations it has. Takes a bit of operating to get the most out of it.
K1DA: "Man, I'm REALLY OPERATING when I push that menu button for the blanker."
Actually, FCC defines "operating" in the amateur radio context as being the control operator. Which means the person responsible, not necessarily the person pushing the buttons or turning the knobs.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by W4LGH on March 1, 2008
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Well I see ole Jimmy has made his way to this thread..."Actually, FCC defines "operating" in the amateur radio context as being the control operator. Which means the person responsible, not necessarily the person pushing the buttons or turning the knobs.
73 de Jim, N2EY"
Once again making statements like a lawyer. When I told him he missed his calling to be a lawyer, he stated I was personally attacking him. With statements like the above, he sure sounds like one!
So how did this nice thread go from Great old radios, to how, who or what is an operator??
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by NI0C on March 1, 2008
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"So how did this nice thread go from Great old radios, to how, who or what is an operator?? "
Gosh, you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to answer that one.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AF6AY on March 1, 2008
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W4LGH commented on 1 Mar 08:
"Well I see ole Jimmy has made his way to this thread..."Actually, FCC defines "operating" in the amateur radio context as being the control operator. Which means the person responsible, not necessarily the person pushing the buttons or turning the knobs.
73 de Jim, N2EY""
"Once again making statements like a lawyer. When I told him he missed his calling to be a lawyer, he stated I was personally attacking him. With statements like the above, he sure sounds like one!"
Alan, make that 'Lecturer and Lawgiver' - a plateau ABOVE mere lawyer. :-)
In a decade over on newsgroup rec.radio.amateur.policy he substantially self-defined himself as what I described. ANYTHING contrary to what his opinion is will be defined by him as a 'personal insult.' [UNLESS you are a morseaholic, that is]
...........
W4LGH: "So how did this nice thread go from Great old radios, to how, who or what is an operator??"
Someone tried to push someone else's buttons... :-)
...........
In my youth I started working as an illustrator, thus I've got a personal liking for shapes and colors with functionality and purpose. My personal favorite, just from shape-form-function, is the Collins KWM-2 HF transceiver. [never had one, used one once]
Ford Motor Company has just announced their new "Bullitt" Mustang, a classic shape-form-function-color extremely-similar version of the car Steve McQueen drove in the movie of the same name. Despite being a Camaro fan ('67-'70-'82), that Highland Green retro Mustang has an intrinsic appeal to my senses. [I have a DVD of that "Bullitt" film and it is fabulous played over an HDTV LCD screen]
To blend as many possibilities of Classics into one package, I think it would be a lovely merge of that new Bullitt Mustang of 2008 with a slightly-smaller (but same proportions) solid-state version of the KWM-2 for mobile amateur radio operations. The only thing spoiling that fantasy image is the necessity for an HF antenna which would spoil the looks of the Mustang's exterior classic lines...and the exhileration one gets out of driving a high-performance sporty-type of car would detract from operating a radio. :-)
Now I don't claim to be any sort of great driver or 'radio operator' (whatever that is not-defined-as) but certain shape-form-function-color things DO have an appeal to different folks and much of that appeal sits in the fantasy centers of the brain. In 'operating' a receiver, for instance, there's a lot of fantasy-time possible while the ear-brain is searching for the right signal while hands-fingers are obeying the 'operating' part of the brain. It is easy to get a merging of fantasy with reality and imagine a lot of things. Or, there might be a lot of time spent in rationalizing the old radios as 'the proper things' just because one can't afford something new but would never lose face by admitting it in public.
Still, to me, a KWM-2 just sitting on a table, unpowered, has an aesthetic appeal to me in its shape-form-color and knowledge of its technical performance. Other folks get turned on by other things. 'Mileage varies.'
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AF6AY on March 1, 2008
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K5MO tried to push some buttons on 1 Mar 08:
[AF6AY]:"I have a couple OB2 shunt regulators that fell out of spec just from sitting around the workshop, unused, for three decades"
"Gee, only three decades? Hard to get good parts these days! :-)"
Would you have felt better if I said 'VR150' or 'VR105' instead of calling out an all-glass miniature envelope type? :-)
..........
K5MO: "Fell out of spec" really has no relation to "will they work find in typical boatanchor radio applications", which is the real issue."
Is that the REAL ISSUE? I could have sworn it is about CLASSIC RIGS.
I was remarking based on a personal project I'd started. That was to recreate a SW BC receiver that I'd designed and built for my (non-radio-person) father four decades ago. It was a six-tube (plus shunt regulator OB2 for stabilizing the B+ of the LOs in its double conversion) structure that was deliberately designed for high sensitivity and ease of use. The original fell off the storage shelf during the 1994 Northridge earthquake out here, the original OB2 (among a few othe things) broken.
Lots of the old 'Classics' used gas shunt regulators for similar purposes. But, as a design engineer as well as hobbyist, I have this habit of wanting to KNOW the characteristics of certain critical components. [pardon me if I 'offend' anyone by that remark] For my project an EXACT re-creation of a 40-year-old personal project receiver was not that important to me now. For the price of a replacement OB2 now plus a few bucks I could (and have breadboarded) a solid-state series regulator for the entire 100 VDC B+. Both ripple and regulation together are better than +/- 0.5% over an AC line voltage range of 100 to 140 VAC RMS. My interest lay in seeing how well the six vacuum tubes would perform in a new design for RF-IF-LO-AF, including frequency stability of L-C tuned local oscillators WITHOUT things like the B+ varying...plus the availability NOW of things like LTSpice to breadboard circuits without needing parts. That B+ regulator (two transistors, two zeners) went directly from the LTSpice simulation to a working breadboard without changing one component value! That just wasn't possible for hobbyists four decades ago.
I have a fondness for 'classics' since I started in as a hobbyist in 1947. Vacuum tubes were all we had for active devices then. Tubes can do a lot but they can't do everything the best way. Shunt regulator tubes did only minor regulation and wasted power that became heat. Taking a clue from circa-1950 designs of a GE microwave radio relay terminal and the Tektronix 511AD oscilloscopes that were used with them, all the different B+ voltages in those were well-regulated by tube series regulators. Tektronix did that from Day One in their scopes. Excellent operating STABILITY was the result with a lesser waste of power. That was (in my first experience with them) in 1954, 54 years ago. Something HAS to fall into the 'classic' niche if it is that old.
If you've been involved on the engineering level with vacuum tubes, you might recall the manufacturer's detailed specifications on Leak Testing and the differences between various metal-glass seals that were used. Those leak rates are VERY slow, but they DO exist in some tubes. It isn't well-publicized and hobbyists can't do much about it. Shunt regulators have a gas mixture in place of a hard vacuum and might be more of a problem insofar as changing characteristics. Note: I got my tip from some engineer acquaintences who were much deeper in that subject than I. I just set up a bench test that would give me some hard data on voltages and currents to see how my two remaining OB2s performed. They didn't meet spec. <shrug> I could have gotten a couple 5651 gas regulators from one of them that were from older Tektronix scopes (530, 540 series) but they couldn't do my project job; 5651s were voltage references before the advent of zeners.
Now, I could have just ignored the hard data and kept to my old project notes and lied to myself on their performance, but that would be just denial...even if a lot of other hobbyists DO that sort of thing, thinking that factory specs will remain 'forever.' They don't. Tube data and curves were always 'typical' anyway, an approximation of the mean characteristics of production run variations. The same with BJTs and FETs.
I don't feel that restoration of Classic radios requires EXACT DUPLICATION of the original. Radios aren't automobiles. But, other folks feel differently and I'll give them their due.
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AF6AY on March 1, 2008
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NI0C remarked on 1 Mar 08:
"I also liked something Len said in an earlier post: "Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.""
Thank you, Chuck, but it isn't original, just one of many 'taglines' I saved from the BBS era. My wife (a non-radio-person) likes the following saying:
All electronics works by means of smoke. If the smoke leaks out, it won't work... :-)
Len
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Classic Rigs
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by W1RC on March 2, 2008
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This subject has been cussed and discussed for a long time and hopefully will continue to do so.
There is no right or wrong about this. It's what you like. Old gear is great especially to those who remember wanting it back then and not being able to afford it.
The new technologies sich as DSP, digital filtering, etc, are wonderful enhancements. But few of us have the wherewithall to repair these radios should they require service.
On the other hand, the cirucitry and principles of "boatanchors" are easily understandable and repairable by anyone with the knowledge and skills to do so.
There's no reason why we cannot enjoy both aspects of this great hobby.
73,
Michael, W1RC
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by W4LGH on March 2, 2008
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You deffinately do NOT want the smoke to leak out!
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by N2EY on March 2, 2008
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W4LGH writes: "Well I see ole Jimmy has made his way to this thread..."
Alan,
Who is this "Jimmy" of whom you speak?
"Actually, FCC defines "operating" in the amateur radio context as being the control operator. Which means the person responsible, not necessarily the person pushing the buttons or turning the knobs.
73 de Jim, N2EY"
W4LGH: "Once again making statements like a lawyer."
Is my statement incorrect?
W4LGH: "When I told him he missed his calling to be a lawyer, he stated I was personally attacking him."
No, that's just not true. Your personal attacks take many forms.
W4LGH: "With statements like the above, he sure sounds like one!"
I am not a lawyer. I am an engineer. One thing I learned in engineering was to make precise and accurate statements.
Was my statement about FCC's definition of operating in any way imprecise or inaccurate?
W4LGH: "So how did this nice thread go from Great old radios, to how, who or what is an operator??"
K1DA made comments about what is and is not "operating". He indicated that selecting things from a menu isn't "operating". I disagreed with that.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AF6AY on March 2, 2008
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K1DA posted earlier:
" Tube seals??? I have some receiving tubes from weather balloon boxes I found washed up on the BEACH when I was a kid (they were always banged up from hitting the rocks so I didn't send them back as instructed -besides they were like mana from heaven for a kid building superregens) that still work fine!"
Out of curiosity, when were you a kid? In 1954 a Japanese farmer brought in such a weather balloon box to our transmitter site CO's office. Unlucky me got the assignment from the First Sergeant to 'investigate that and who wants it back.' I did despite just coming off of CQ duty. The USAF had a small radiosonde training unit several miles away. The buck got passed there and the USAF class first john talked by phone with our CO, also a first john. They really didn't want anything back. Sgt Anderson got to keep the box...and the tattered remains of a little parachute, all of which had been out in the weather for maybe a year.
The 'box' was made of thin white plastic, contained a one-shot battery whose electrolyte apparently was water mixing with internal dry chemicals, a phenolic-paper PCB which had a resistive temperature sensor, an aneroid barometer linked to a clever PCB rotary switch which alternated contacts with the temp sensor resistance, a fixed resistance (apparently to mark the altitude) and little else. The resistance modulated an astable multivibrator which pulsed the integral (upside down) antenna-tuned cavity pencil triode. Only two tubes as I remember, a subminiature glass as the multi and the pencil triode in its crimped-shut cavity with thin-sheet drooping ground plane. The tube electronics was mounted in a plastic housing looking for all the world like an upside-down super enema applicator and snapped onto the white box bottom. Balloon and parachute cord eye were on the opposite box side. According to the USAF class NCO, radiosonde tracking frequencies were in L-Band (1 to 2 GHz). All incredibly cheap construction methods, obviously very low cost. Service life was one or two DAYS of continuous operation.
Some many years later my RCA project group was investigating pencil triodes for an application and we found out that HALF A MILLION integral crimped-shut-cavities housing the pencil triode were used up every year in weather balloon radiosondes by the USA civilian and military meteorologists in the 1950s and 1960s. I thought that remarkable since so little advertising was done about pencil triodes in ANY of the popular or trade magazines. Truly a 'throwaway' style of technology. But, meteorologically speaking, quite essential for the times.
54 years ago a pencil triode had cathode-grid-plate spacings on par with 'lighthouse' structure triodes (also limited to L-Band frequencies). Those 'lighthouse' triodes were quite expensive in the 50s...but the pencil triodes were, relatively speaking, quite cheap. They should have been cheap judging from the incredibly-large production runs.
K1DA: "We lived near a large-now closed Naval Aviation facility and the carriers did a lot of flight training not far offshore."
Depending on the local weather, those radiosondes might have remained aloft for a day or so and drift a thousand miles before the balloon (also cheap stuff) broke and little nylon parachute keeping the box from free-falling. Examining the remains of the radiosonde was an interesting 'break' for my microwave radio relay crew. But, we were all in agreement that no way could we have salvaged that pencil triode without destroying the sheet-metal cavity surrounding it. Besides, trying to run a super-regen made out of it in the presence of multi-frequency HF transmitters emitting a total of about 300 KW RF would have been difficult. :-) The 1.8 GHz GE microwave radio relay equipment had many-sectioned bandpass filters for both Rx and Tx, weren't affected by such HF RF...even if centered in the near field of a two-square-mile antenna field.
A small-boat short-range radar was made for civilian use by a company called Bonzer in the 1970s. It was L-Band and used pencil triodes for the transmitter with four helix antennas against a lightweight ground plane. Outside of that, haven't heard of much use for those pencil triodes in anything but radiosondes. Stranger still, with HALF A MILLION radiosondes launched each year, I've heard very few stories of finding one and no reports from the FAA of any aircraft colliding with one.
Earlier I had remarked on 'tube seals.' Leakage INTO tubes had already been studied by tube makers and predicted by tube designers-manufacturers. It is real but the leakage is predicted over a VERY long period (decades) and would be random over a large production lot. It DOES exist and may or may not affect 'vacuum' tubes that have been in storage a long time. It isn't a facetious thing. Semiconductor folks have also studied contamination of semiconductors to insure longevity but their problems are different. Semiconductor makers have products that last MULTIPLE decades longer than tubes now.
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AF6AY on March 2, 2008
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K5RIP posted on 29 Feb 08:
"Why is it so easy to ridicule someones opinion about the classic radios...if it wasn't for the older radios we wouldn't have the newer radios....These radios can still do the job and be a lot of fun....Harv K5RIP"
Harv, just exactly who is 'ridiculing someones opinion about classic radios?' If you take a look around this forum you will see a bunch of guys RIDICULING *NEW* RADIOS. Did their feelings get hurt or something when all didn't agree with them? Sure seems that way...
If you go back in the history of radio, you will find that old, old radios have always been outclassed and made essentially obsolete by newer (but still old) radios. Newer radios than those worked better than the old radios. All of them worked FAR better than the original amateur radio receivers using crystal or coherer detectors, those good only for VLF and LF. And that was all BEFORE the USA got into WWII. So where do you draw the line? And why is that 'line' where it is? I know the answer and it has been proved by lots of postings in here: The 'line' varies according to individuals' first experiences with a good radio receiver. It is a SUBJECTIVE location, varying with each individual.
For the same subjective reason, 'fun' varies with the individual. Some in here like to smirk and posture and act arrogant to newbies because they claim to have been around a long time (in amateur radio). I get the feeling their 'fun' is smirking, posturing, and jeering...plus a lot of bragging of what they have in their ham shacks. I don't think that's the main purpose of this hobby...but it makes it difficult for newcomers to really enjoy the environment.
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by W4LGH on March 2, 2008
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New is not always better than old. I have both New and Old equipment, and for what I do with the old equipment, it is just as good as the new. Now when the bands get crowded, the new will prevail in most cases.
If you have NOT played with old equipment, maybe you should give it a try? I was in the past only interested in new stuff. Then one day someone gave me an old radio. I fixed it up and it worked very well.
So I decided to find some Drake equipment, 4B line...
I completely restored it, replacing bad caps and such, then powder coated the cases, and it is a serious radio, complete with variable bandpass filtering. I use it just about everyday to check into the Maritime net on 14.300. The receiver puts out some of the best sounding audio, way better than the new stuff. No DSP, no synthasizer noise, and a big speaker with plenty of audio drive. Something that seriously lacks in new stuff.
So give it a try, but be warned...it is adictive!!
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AF6AY on March 3, 2008
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N2EY thought he was 'personally attacked' on March 2, 2008:
"W4LGH writes: "Well I see ole Jimmy has made his way to this thread...""
"Alan,
"Who is this "Jimmy" of whom you speak?""
It is a SOBRIQUET that you have earned (the old fashioned way) in your postings here and elsewhere. :-)
..........
[N2EY in previous posting]: "Actually, FCC defines "operating" in the amateur radio context as being the control operator. Which means the person responsible, not necessarily the person pushing the buttons or turning the knobs.
73 de Jim, N2EY"
W4LGH: "Once again making statements like a lawyer."
N2EY: "Is my statement incorrect?"
It is INCORRECT in its entirety...by attempting to INTERPRET what the 'FCC means' in your second sentence following the first.
You present NO evidence that YOU are an employee of any federal agency of the USA, certainly NOT the FCC. As such, you DO NOT 'represent,' much less have authority to INTERPRET 'what the FCC says.'
There is NO EVIDENCE that the FCC has EVER stated anything about 'pushing buttons or turning knobs.' Ergo, you are trying to INTERPRET (via the second sentence) 'what the FCC means.' YOU do NOT have AUTHORITY to 'speak for the FCC.' You are merely another USA amateur radio licensee, NO BETTER than anyone else in here. Your second sentence statement attempt to connect it with your first statement is a PRESUMPTION, your personal opinion. Nothing more.
ANYONE can read Part 97 of Title 47 Code of Federal Regulations, or even the entirety of Title 47, and INTERPRET FOR THEMSELVES. Try not to evoke the pomposity of self-appointed 'authority' of all things amateur, radio, or electronics. You are NOT QUALIFIED.
.............
W4LGH: "When I told him he missed his calling to be a lawyer, he stated I was personally attacking him."
N2EY: "No, that's just not true. Your personal attacks take many forms."
Oh oh! Here comes the AMBIGUOUS 'personal attack' ploy that N2EY has used time and again over on newsgroup rec.radio.amateur.policy! If that is continued it will result in several sub-articles wherein 'Jimmy' becomes the Star Subject, the grievously wounded (by words), one of the OUTRAGED BY PERSONAL PEJORATIVEs 'aimed directly at HIM.'
I doubt it has anything to do with Classic Rigs but it is a 'classic' statement emitted (in place of RF) of the Self-Righteous Knowitall. Such HAS been around in all the recorded literature of the human race. :-(
.............
W4LGH: "With statements like the above, he sure sounds like one!"
N2EY: "I am not a lawyer. I am an engineer. One thing I learned in engineering was to make precise and accurate statements."
Yes, I have no doubt that ENGINEER Miccolis is a bundle of laffs at his workplace. Sigh.
Strange, but I too am an electronics engineer and longer ago learned to make 'precise and accurate statements'...but about THINGS, not people. But, I've been a hobbyist in electronics for a lot longer than ENGINEER Miccolis has been alive and learned to get along with people before he existed. <shrug>
<time to put on pseudo-lawyer hat and reply in this moot court>
By the stated LAW in several Parts of Title 47 C.F.R., the federal agency regulating ALL civil radio in the United States defines AMATEUR RADIO as a radio communications activity done 'without pecuniary interest.' The word 'pecuniary' is defined in the dictionary as pertaining to or about MONEY. Boiled down to ordinary folks' words, amateur radio is done NOT FOR PROFIT or even compensation for communications services rendered (in amateur radio). ENGINEERS are generally considered PROFESSIONAL...that is, they receive monetary compensation for services they render. Professions get paid, amateurs do not. In short, amateur radio is a HOBBY, a non-pecuniary interest activity done for personal pleasure involving an evolving technological area known as electronics and/or radio.
Both professional technicians and engineers gain KNOWLEDGE of electronics/radio through their daily work. KNOWLEDGE is transferrable to any hobby activity...there is NO prohibition against knowledge transferrance that does not violate laws or corporate trade secrets. Such knowledge transferrance does NOT imbue a professional technician or engineer with any 'special authority' to INTERPRET LAW or in the REPRESENTATION OF AUTHORITY in some governmental agency. That is the province of the LEGAL PROFESSION, perhaps the etymological academician (for definitions of words and phrases).
................
N2EY: "Was my statement about FCC's definition of operating in any way imprecise or inaccurate?"
Yes in its entirety of attempting to associate YOUR OPINION as that of an INTERPRETATION of a federal agency. That has been explained to you. That's a no-no.
The ARRL has done a LOT of that kind of 'word/phrase association' in its writings over the last half century. Lots of IMPLICATIONS in connecting REAL official statements to the sentences originating at ARRL Hq. Makes amateur radio look very good and important to members and future members. It is CLEVER wordsmithing and has been quite effective for the League. It is also 'guilt of ommission' in that they seldom tell the WHOLE story behind something in preference for boosting only the amateur radio aspects. It is quite possible that N2EY is simply subliminally influenced by that kind of clever wordsmithing.
<hat is off...>
.............
W4LGH: "So how did this nice thread go from Great old radios, to how, who or what is an operator??"
N2EY: "K1DA made comments about what is and is not "operating". He indicated that selecting things from a menu isn't "operating". I disagreed with that."
Sigh, N2EY (the amateur radio licensee, not ENGINEER Miccolis) will DISAGREE with anyone NOT holding to HIS opinions and then cry 'personal attack.' On anything.
............
Alan, I think I would PREFER old radios rather than listening to some of these self-rightous amateur attorneys. I'm not a big fan of old radios but there are a few that I personally like. Those, like some classic cars, can just sit there without operating and look cool and classy.
But, old radios are still a personal preferrence, like 'beauty is in the eye of the beer holder' or something like that... :-)
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by AF6AY on March 4, 2008
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HA5WF asked the question on March 4, 2008:
"We are talking about Classic Rigs, aren't we?"
I certainly HOPE so...:-)
Anyone know where I can get a Western Electric LD-T2 HF SSB transmitter? I might want to go legal limit on HF (wink, wink, nudge, nudge).
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by W4LGH on March 4, 2008
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Well Len, I think you sumed it up pretty good. Ole Jimmy has followed me everywhere I have posted and directly has told me I was WRONG and didn't know what I was talking about. Funny thing is, I have made a nice living being an engineer for the past 35 years.
I also grew up in my fathers radio & tv shop and learned about electronics and electronic theory at an early age.I also have many engineering certificates from advanced electronic engineering from such companies as RCA, Harris, Collins, GE, CSS, and many others dealing with hi-power RF transmitters in the Broadcast Industry.
Now the same rules/theories & laws of physics apply to all forms of electronic communications, whether is be Professional or Amateur Communications. So I have no idea where he is coming from, except that if you really read his posts, they seem to be a converged version of 10 or so other poster that he sides with.
Whether ole "JIMMY" is truly an engineer or not, I have no idea, but I can and will say, anyone can go and get an engineering degree, but that does not mean that they are true engineers. True engineers are born with these characteristic, then usually get their degree. None of which seem to belong to ole "JIMMY".
Only thing I can tell is that he seem to go along with a small majority, either to keep his popularity up, in some weird way, I don't know. I do know that some of his interpretations seem to be way off base.
Anyway, enough about him. Yes Vintage radio is a personal choice, and that is what makes it great. I enjoy the NEW and the OLD for lots of different reasons, another JOY of Ham Radio!
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com
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Classic Rigs
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by WA2CCN on March 6, 2008
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Ah, yes... OLD rigs... REAL RADIOS GLOW IN THE DARK! I absolutely love my Kenwood TS-870... but... yeah... my "antique station"... how about this... National NC-303 receiver and (for CW & AM) a Johnson Viking Valiant transmitter (3 - 6146's in the final, high level class-B plate modulated with a pair of 6146's! That 5... count them... FIVE 6146's int he same box!) or, for SSB, a Johnson Viking Pacemaker phasing rig... either running through a Johnson Matchbox! There's a jillion knobs that need to be twisted to get these units on frequency, tuned up, and putting some RF into the ether... ...and the Pacemaker, add another dozen tweaking adjustments for phasing, balance, etc. Flip the TRANSMIT switch on the Valiant and - BANG! - relays relay and power & modulation transformers snap to attention... with a little transformer hum in the background... then talk and listen to the laminations in the modulation transformer vibrate... incandescent lights in the ham shack dimming with each voice peak... I love it! You had ti understand what's going on inside the radios! None of this zero-effort business! Work a little! THAT's ham radio!
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by WZ4KIM on March 6, 2008
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"WX1F" "Yes..there's nothing like the smell of a burning resistor or primary winding of a high voltage transformer...especially when it occurs right at the instant you made contact with Hawaii from 1 land after 10 years of trying to complete your WAS..and the OM on the other end just said "Repeat??" Yep....nothing like it....!!!"
That reminds me of a friend of mine who's a home builder. He once said; "They sure don't make them like they used to." "Thank God!"
Hmmm.... yes, having a modern compact yaesu or kenwood with the glorious IC's and CPUs that cost an arm and a leg and your first born to send out for repairs during the week of the BIG contests is WONDERFUL!! ;)
I have BOTH... modern rigs and vintage gear.... I'll take the vintage gear ANY DAY... Thank you!
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Classic Rigs
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by WB8NUT on March 7, 2008
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Miss that old dust gathering, energy wasting crap? Absolutely not. The modern rigs are far better performers, more capable, DSP, no tuning, smaller, energy efficient and just more fun to use. Thank God CW testing and Tube Rigs have gone the way of the dinosaur.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by W4LGH on March 8, 2008
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Aw...CW testing may have gone away, but tube rigs will live on as long as tubes can be found! And there are millions of tubes out there, still in boxes waiting to get used.
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by WD9FUM on March 8, 2008
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WZ4KIM wrote: "Hmmm.... yes, having a modern compact yaesu or kenwood with the glorious IC's and CPUs that cost an arm and a leg and your first born to send out for repairs during the week of the BIG contests is WONDERFUL!! ;)"
That's another plus for the older rigs... you can fix 'em yourself!
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by WB8NUT on March 9, 2008
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Aren't we supposed to be progressing and not regressing? You can fix tube stuff yourself. You can also fix solid state radios yourself. It is just a matter of wanting to learn something new.
The FCC should have replaced the CW testing with mandatory retesting on repairing modern radios. Who cares if you can only use CW in an emergency. If you cannot repair modern radios in an emergency, what good are you as an operator?
Then of course Al Gore, environmental wackos, and arctic loving - ozone fearing Democrats would be so disappointed in all these tube rig users contributing to global warming by using these energy wasting old and outdated tube radios. But that's another discussion.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by W1AJO on March 9, 2008
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I like old radios and when I return from Iraq I will get my Hallicrafters station back on the air. But I have to admit that my inexpensive FT-840 is a much better radio than my HT-37 and SX100 combo.
I like using both! After all, it's a hoby and the point of hobbies is to have fun!
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by K7PEH on March 9, 2008
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Yesterday, a hamfest visit, and a view at old and new...
I am still on the hunt for a clock for my HQ-170A so that I can turn it into an HQ-170AC but no luck. Lots of HQs, just none priced right so that I can buy it for the clock.
Also, a sale that I might be sorry I passed up. A Drake TR4 with Noise Blanker in very good condition (the seller said the rig was fully operational and adjusted). And, along with the TR4 was the remote VFO and the speaker/power supply combo. He said he would take $325 for all three boxes. I would have bought it but I didn't want to have to lug it to my truck about 1000 yards away. I may regret that decision.
Another guy was selling a Drake TR4CW along with AC4 power supply but he stated that although receive functioned fine, the transmitter portion did not work. The surprise though was his firm $500 selling price. Although I would much rather have a TR4CW then a TR4, I certainly wouldn't pay $500 for some broken thing. Besides, it was dirty and thus a sign of not being well kept.
Well, that $500 selling price was not as funny as the guy asking $200 for a used Astron RS-35M. HRO sells them brand new for $169.
Icom had its usual elaborate setup (after all, this was the Puyallup Hamfest and Icom America is just an hour away in Bellevue). They had the high sticker price stuff, an IC-7800 and the IC-9500 receiver. But, alas, no IC-7700, not even any brochures on the IC-7700.
The highlight though was the Elecraft booth that I believe was sponsored by fans of Elecraft. I don't think that anyone from Elecraft was there. But, they had two K3s on display. One up, powered-on, and operational. The other was opened up to see how the "kit" goes together. I spent a lot of time with these guys and I am now convinced that the K3 is my next major purchase. I just may put in my order this week although there is an estimated 4-month wait.
So, old rigs are interesting and even somewhat quaint and I like the idea of owning a few and operating them from time to time. But, the advantage and benefits of something like the K3 or even my Icom 756 Pro III is hard to beat in my opinion. I may very well become a K3 fanatic though.
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RE: Classic Rigs
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by WD9FUM on March 9, 2008
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I'd like to be able to work on my TS870 if I had to, but neither my eyesight nor my arthritic hands will allow me to do so. I can still see whats inside of my B Line and get my fingers into them.
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Classic Rigs
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by AF6AY on March 9, 2008
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Judging by the replies to what so many have in their ham shacks, their radios must have mutated to that (not too rare) metastable element 'SURPASSIUM.'
Once a radio has mutated, that radio far surpasses the performance of anyone else's radio: It is more powerful, yet can get through with the least power, it is the most sensitive (it can jump tall pile-ups in a single knob twist)...it is the biggest, yet also the smallest, the most efficient, the least cost and the most expensive. It is always up-to-date with the latest technology yet it is the simplest and can be serviced by any schoolchild.
SURPASSIUM-mutated radios are found in all product reviews and on discussion forums such as this one on e-ham. Each one of them surpasses any others' performance and specifications.
73, Len AF6AY
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