In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
from
Ken Beck
on
January 24, 2009
View comments about this article!
A recent article in The New York Times reported on the possibiliy of city authorities considering jamming cellphone, and other personal commnuication devices in the event of a Mumbai-type attack. As reported by Al Baker on 09JAN09:
"The announcement by New York City police officials that they are studying the feasibility of disrupting cellphone communications in the event of a terrorist attack came after it was revealed that attackers in Mumbai, India, used electronic transmissions during their November assault...
Raising the issue of “the ability of terrorist handlers to direct operations from outside the attack zone using cellphones and other portable communications devices,” Mr. Kelly said in his Senate testimony, “With this comes a formidable capacity to adjust tactics while attacks are under way.
Mr. Kelly added:
We also discussed the complications of media coverage that could disclose law enforcement tactics in real time. This phenomenon is not new. In the past, police were able to defeat any advantage it might give hostage takers by cutting off power to the location they were in. However, the proliferation of hand-held devices would appear to trump that solution. When lives are at stake, law enforcement needs to find ways to disrupt cellphones and other communications in a pinpointed way against terrorists using them.
Electronic jamming of cellphones or of global positioning systems is complicated but possible, and may already be in use by foreign military agencies, said Eric Lustig, a data systems manager at Eastern Communications, a Queens company that provides radio equipment to government agencies and other clients.
Cellular service in a big region, like a borough, could simply be shut down, he said. More compact sites, like an official motorcade, could be jammed by devices in the cars."
My question to the EMCOMM community is how do you feel about this proposal, and how would it effect you efforts in such a situation?
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by K0ZL on January 24, 2009
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I hope New Yorkers will think through this proposal and reprimand those responsible for such an idea even making out of the "brainstorm" session. This is most idiotic. "We're under attack!"..."OK, cut cellphone and pager traffic NOW!"..."Duh, alright!"..."Wait a minute until after I call my wife to tell her to get the kids and leave town!"..."Too late, already done!". Yeah.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by K4KRW on January 24, 2009
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"The New York Times reported on the possibility of city authorities considering jamming cellphone, and other personal communication devices in the event of a Mumbai-type attack"
First of all. Federal law says jamming is illegal.
http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=operations_2&id=cellular
So, until federal law is changed, local authorities cannot jam cell services.
Local authorities do not license the airwaves. So they cannot deprive licensed entities of their use.
Plus, jamming cellular service not only deprives the bad guys of a means of communication, it also deprives the victims and those who could provide useful information about the situation.
Something much more targeted is needed. Don't use a shotgun where a scalpel is needed.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KD5NVC on January 24, 2009
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Jamming after the attack is like closing the barn door after the horse has left the barn. Pin-point jamming is already being used by the military. Also, if the government is doing the jamming, is it still illegal? With the current administration and the way they are removing our ability to monitor terrorist, we may not have to worry how long it will take for the next attack.
"keep your powder dry"
73
Glenn
kd5nvc
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by NV2A on January 24, 2009
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These ideas are called KJR's, otherwise known as Knee Jerk Reactions. Hopefully, if a terrorist squad hits block B, the good guys will notice someone getting ready to damage block c and have made their cell phone calls to the authorities before the authorities remove any possibility of the good guys springing into action.
Now are we going to have Pro-Cellular folks like we have Pro-Firearms folks? We're told we don't need guns and to call the police. With what?
We need more and bigger government!
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by K4MC on January 24, 2009
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With 15+ years in law enforcement (and counting) I feel the jamming of cell and other personal communication will also cripple police services. Many police dispatch services use internet based computers with air cards on lap top computers. Field officers and commanders alike also use cell phones, often with the "walkie-talkie" feature.
Any well coordinated attack will not need rely on real time communication but on detailed planning.
In short, a bad idea.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KT4WO on January 24, 2009
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New York have a bad idea?... NEVER.
Lets all move there.
KT4WO
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by W6JAK on January 24, 2009
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Jamming an enemy's communications is nothing new. The jamming can be localized or utilize precision techniques to minimize disruption to friendly communications. Whether a local police force is capable of or allowed to execute such methods is a different matter.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by K1CJS on January 24, 2009
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One of the reasons this is being considered is the possibility of using cellphone communications to control something in the place being attacked--a release mechanism or even a bomb detonator. There is something to be said for this, after all you can buy a cellphone with an assigned number and short amount of airtime on it for $15.00 in Wal Mart. Beats the cost of remote detonator systems hands down and has a greater range--almost worldwide.
The jamming in this case should be strictly localized to only affect the area in question--and no more.
New York, as usual, is going off the deep end with their plans and procedures. They already have duplication of effort in their police department--departments and abilities that no other city police departments have. As far as they're concerned, they're above the law.
Move there? Not on your life--even if it were the last place left on earth!
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by AI4WC on January 24, 2009
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We are an amateur radio community. Cellular communications and their regulation or jamming are not within our purview or area of (amateur) expertise. This is more for FOX or CNN television commentators, not amateur radio operators. We should stick to those topics.
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by K1CJS on January 24, 2009
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Jim, the type jamming the NYCPD is looking at WILL affect our frequencies--they're looking at jamming ALL radio signals in the affected area.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KE7RFL on January 24, 2009
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It dovetails nicely with our hysterical "terrorist behind every tree" post-911 national mood.
What is incredibly telling are two polls. The first one, taken in the weeks preceding "911" asked "Is the federal government capable of preventing a terrorist attack?" About 80% responded "NO!".
Immediately after "911", another poll asked "Do you trust the federal government to perevent another terrorist attack?" About 80% answered "YES".
Sorry folks... But I'm more worried about the federal government abusing my freedoms than I am that some "terrorist" will whack me.
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by KC8VWM on January 24, 2009
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Of course, you could always jam everything "in anticipation" of an event.
There's really no point jamming anything after the incident has already occured unless the intention is to severely limit much needed communications at the most critical point in time.
(...Who comes up with this stuff?)
73 Charles - KC8VWM
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by AA4PB on January 24, 2009
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Interesting - how do they jam ALL RF communications without disrupting their own communications? I'm sure their lawyers will have some input as well. Joe citizen is having a heart attack and dies because you can't call 911 because NYC has jammed all cell phone calls. This is another of those "brain storms" by people who have no idea what they are talking about.
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by KC8VWM on January 24, 2009
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Jim, the type jamming the NYCPD is looking at WILL affect our frequencies--they're looking at jamming ALL radio signals in the affected area.
------
Great, even the NYCPD won't be able to talk to one another. That sounds like a great idea during a terrorist attack huh?..
To really be effective, they would lierally have to jam "everything" in site or nothing at all because for all we know the "terrorists" may be using FRS radio's instead of text messaging each other on thier blackberries on that particular day. Who knows they might switch between several modes of communication including using CW on 80m too.
Hey, you never know - it's better to jam everything for a radius of 10 miles just in case.
73
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by K4XZ on January 24, 2009
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With the news of all the monitoring the Bush administration has been doing I don't think you have to worry about NY.When communications go down during a mission and they do,you follow the plan. Well I'm going back to my back yard bomb shelter and eat some beans.
73 Joe K4XZ
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by WA1RNE on January 24, 2009
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The author of this article left out some key statements made by the police commissioner and spokesman, which if included would have shown that authorities are performing a feasibility study and are far from implementing any of these measures.
From the article:
"Later, Paul J. Browne, the Police Department’s chief spokesman, said the department wanted to preserve the option of monitoring conversations between terrorists should that prove more advantageous than cutting them off. He said that any plan to shut electronics transmissions was only in the discussion stage.
Mr. Browne said, Our communications and technology people are looking for ways to disrupt cellphone and hand-held devices in a pinpointed way.
He added: We are not at a point where we are testing any equipment. We are talking to the industry and to people in other government agencies and among ourselves. What is known about this? What is possible? And what is being tested along these lines?
Here's the article from the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/nyregion/09kelly.html?_r=1&scp=4&sq=jamming%20cell%20phone%20&st=cse
Here's an example of some pinpoint jamming equipment the NY Police Department and other agencies might be evaluating. I could see this type of equipment being used target a threat inside NY's subway system - versus disabling cellular service for entire section of the city.
http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/jamming/homeland-security/
....WA1RNE
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by KD8CTZ on January 24, 2009
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lets just ignore the jamming for a second....why is the media still allowed to broadcast stories about what the U.S. maybe thinking of doing in an effort to protect us from a possible attack.doesnt seem right
terry salem
KB8BQE {changed call havent changed my profile yet}
"flying copper and proud of it"
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by N6JSX on January 24, 2009
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A few tid-bits to add;
During the 1992, Rodney King riots local LA TV was showing real time looting within minutes the number of looters went exponential at that location. It showed the lack of police and how many other issues were happening spreading the police ultra thin. I wrote FCC/Congress to allow a local governments under an emergency declaration to enact a 1-8hr delay of any live filming of any civil unrest until control was restored. 1st amendment rights would not be prohibited
just delayed for the good of society. To date, I've not heard local governments can do this via FCC.
OK, some of you will profess that the TV "live" broadcast was for public safety to keep us away from the problem areas - to that I say bull, it was for blood/horror that increase ratings and Pulitzers.
During the first Gulf War we blitzed our armor across the desert with the use of GPS. The Iraq war GPS was not as successful due to the Russians made/sold GPS jammers to Iraq to defeat local tactical GPS usage. GPS short fall is it in on two two frequencies from very very weak SAT signals - so jamming the very weak SAT signal is easy to do with a simple FM signal and ERP.
Military already has cellphone detectors/jammers for IED's but it is very short ranged. What is needed is the ability for local governments (in a declared emergency) to kill cell sites or reroute those affected cell sites calls through a call connection clearing center limiting cell comm's to rouge users.... my concern is the cell industry will claim some Constitutional infraction and loss of revenue$ to prohibit this morally correct logical protective action by government even during a time/location limited emergency. The other complication is for cell only users (like me) in obtaining emergency critical medical services during these limited local cell emergencies. Lawyer$ are drooling for these law suites against the government.
We have had this knowledge/experience for many many years and only NOW someone has connected an India event to the possibilities of being a USA vulnerability. Are we blind, stupid, or just lazy in NOT doing these common sense protective measures? Or are we willing to risk our citizens until someone figures out how to make a buck/fame from it?
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by K0BG on January 24, 2009
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Could it be that George Orwell has been reincarnated?
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by W4VR on January 24, 2009
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Trust me and don't worry, "the proposal will never become a reality in this country." The chaos it would generate would be worse than the attack itself.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by W4JHC on January 24, 2009
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Typical idiot politicians. (but I repeat myself)
The time to jam terrorists is before the attack. After the attack, you just jam first responders and people trying to help one another. The terrorists are not on the air after the attack.
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by KC8VWM on January 24, 2009
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The time to jam terrorists is before the attack.
----
I agree and that's why we need to act now to deploy the jamming devices to stop the terrorists!
(Insert best GWB impression...)
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KD4LLA on January 24, 2009
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This will not effect me because if terrorists get within 50 feet of my home, NYC has already been destroyed.
Mike
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by W1YB on January 24, 2009
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New York, New York won't be allowed to jam anything.
MY tiny knowledge base about, and experience with, the NSA convinced me that they can do anything they want with your cell phone (or any other) traffic any time they like.
However...
The NSA (and their customers and their competitors) obtain far too much important data to interfere with anyone's method of communication. The ARRL isn't the only entity with "Official Observers". Amazing how naive the average citizen (of any country) can be.
If you know an appropriate foreign language, if your lifelong dream was to be a good character actor, or if you are even a passably decent hacker then NSA has a job opening for you - right this second!!!! Oh... You must also have a very high tolerance for boredom and stupidity!
NY, NY has already been told to butt out!
73
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by WX4O on January 24, 2009
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The Fed is close right now, to having a Constitutional
Convention. They will be able to change anything they can get away with. Serious business. Be afraid, very afraid!
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by RADIO123US on January 24, 2009
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Why should we even worry about terrorism now ???...our new president has assured us that if we are nice to the terrorist, they will be nice to us.....don't you believe him ???
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by WN9DDV on January 24, 2009
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The government can terrorize its citizens easier than any foreign terrorist.
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by RADIO123US on January 24, 2009
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WN9DDV said "The government can terrorize its citizens easier than any foreign terrorist"
Absolutely, and it can be summarized in 3 letters...I R S....
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by W5QDF on January 24, 2009
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We are an amateur radio community. Cellular communications and their regulation or jamming are not within our purview or area of (amateur) expertise. This is more for FOX or CNN television commentators, not amateur radio operators. We should stick to those topics.
AI4WC, they started out making it illegal to talk on a cell phone while driving in a school zone, now they are writing tickets to Hams that are using their radio in a school zone.
No matter what airwave is being affected we should be vigilante and defend others airwave rights as if they were our own, because the trickle down affect will end up putting the mess in our lap if we do not act early.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KE5YJR on January 24, 2009
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Anyone ever heard the saying that locks are only meant to keep honest people honest? If terrorists want to attack our country again there is nothing we can do to stop them. They will find a way. All these BS airports laws wont stop them, they might use a bus next time, how long have they been blowing up buses over seas? I dont want to sound like I am supporting them but in reality if they are going to attack again all we can do is be prepared to respond swiftly and not let them get away with it like Osama Bin Forgotten.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KB3QCM on January 24, 2009
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I think it's insane and illegal. Lets not work on the real problems, lets suggest responses that cause even more terror than the attack. What a stupid idea, but not all that supprising...
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KI4SVQ on January 24, 2009
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I respectfully suggest we as ham operators are "communicators" and it is our duty to add our voices to this debate.
My 2 cents:
I believe it is a bad idea and the law of unintended consequence will
rear its ugly head should they tactically cut off major modes of
communications... not worth the price.
The ham community is chock full of communications professionals
many ex military. To suggest this is not our area of expertise is naive.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by N0AH on January 24, 2009
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It is what it is..............we must learn to adapt to our electronic environments and use them to the best of the safety of the public-....but let's let the experts do it-
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KU4UV on January 24, 2009
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It might slow down the terrorists a bit by jamming their communications, but do you really think it would really prevent or disrupt a terrorist attact. How long do you think the terrorist that planned the planned the 9-11 attacks were in the planning stages of wanting tro take out the twin towers. I remember calling my mother on the day of the 9-11 attacks and telling her how I just couldn't believe that terrorists had taken out the twin towers. My mom told me that it shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone, they tried to take them out 8 years earlier in 1993, they just succeeded this time. The best offense will always be a good defense.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by G0GQK on January 24, 2009
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I reaise lots of people use mobile phones but is this of concern to a group which regards the epitome of communication as being radio ? I recall there was quite a discussion about phone use during the Katrina incident
G0GQK
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by KG6WOU on January 24, 2009
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I think it's an idea as useful as burning down your house to get rid of a few flies.
Agressively Stupid, in other words.
Since it would have to be in effect in advance of any event, it would be necessary to eliminate all RF emissions. Yea, that's going to work.
Sometimes really dumb ideas have to be publically beaten before they will die.
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by K5FH on January 24, 2009
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W4JHC:
"The time to jam terrorists is before the attack. After the attack, you just jam first responders and people trying to help one another. The terrorists are not on the air after the attack."
That reminds me of the city that passed an ordinance mandating that "...all fire hydrants are to be tested one hour before all fires." And, no, it wasn't NYC even though it sounds like something they would do.
The only way to make sure that you'll jam terrorists is to jam EVERYTHING, 24/7, starting NOW.
To paraphrase the old saying, the optimist believes that we have the best possible government and the pessimist is afraid he's right.
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by W7ETA on January 24, 2009
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Since I neither have expertise with terrorist communications, nor emergency communications, I'll have to defer judgment to all with the requisite experience posting here on eHam.
I am amazed by how many hams here on eHam are experts with both aspects of the subject material--the EMCOMM community must be busting it's seams with hoards of new active members!
Best from overcast Tucson
Bob
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KW6LA on January 24, 2009
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Are they CRAZY < .....our kids will go into shock !
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by N6AJR on January 24, 2009
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I spent 8 years in the US air force in Electronic countermeasures repair. I fixed jammers.
At risk of devling in areas I still can not speak of, lets just say if the gov't wants to jam something, then they will.
no problem.
Have you ever counted the antennas on a B-52 ??
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by RADIO123US on January 24, 2009
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The "Messiah In Chief" says we will be safe now...and to prove it he's letting alot of those nice people in Git-mo go free.....we don't have to worry about terrorists attacks anymore, and that's why he's stopping all our mean interrogation techniques too....so lets all set around, hold hands, and sing kumbaya....we won't ever be needed again....
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by AI4WC on January 24, 2009
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If jamming of amateur radio frequencies is anticipated, we should be concerned, but I read the article to be about cellular telephones and Blackberrys and similar devices. Some of you may know otherwise, but I was commenting on what I read. What is the probability that the entire radio spectrum (where we operate) would be jammed? Does NYC have that technical capability? I don't think so. I would not argue against your possible knowledge in this subject, but let's be rational as we discuss this topic. Bottom line - I am concerned with ANY temporary or permanent loss of our amateur spectrum. I just don't want to joust at windmills.
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by K9MHZ on January 24, 2009
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>>>>by KW6LA on January 24, 2009 Are they CRAZY .....our kids will go into shock !<<<<
Can you imagine the physical therapists going losing all of their "texting thumb" business? Oh the horror of it all!
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by DWEISS on January 24, 2009
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This is a bad idea for several reasons. First and foremost, this type of thinking falls into the category of "let's help the terrorists destroy our way of life." When terrorists seek to destroy our way of life, we only help them to do so by compromising our own laws and ideals. The efforts to revoke due process and the Bill of Rights, illegal wiretapping, and the passage of the "Patriot" Act following the September 2001 attacks are only the latest and best examples of this. The suggested jamming of communications - cellular or other - would only serve to do further damage to our laws and the Constitution, all without realistically helping any effort to fight our enemies.
As for the technical merits of the proposal, it really doesn't have any. Blocking communications, even if possible, is just as likely to impede police, fire, and others, as it is to stop terrorists. In fact, we're more likely to block desired communications than we are others, since there are just too many ways for someone to plan ahead to avoid such blocking technologies.
It all makes one wonder if people have been watching too many reruns of "24."
-Danny.
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Security is an INDIVIDUAL responsibility!
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by AI2IA on January 24, 2009
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Time for sober thought.
Don't let the media fool you.
You must protect you. Security begins and ends with you. "If you see something, say something." - that much is true. Government is not there to protect you. It is there to protect "them" - the government.
Government? Who in government is responsible? Can a gaggle of people be held responsible for anything? Doesn't the very idea of responsibility rest on the individual?
All the gadgets, all the expensive security contracts, all the government directors and high salaried security managers are no defense against dedicated individuals determined to do harm. Only dedicated individuals determined to preserve their individual liberty can match up against such people.
Government is not the solution. It is just one more problem. Think of your security where it belongs - in your own hands.
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RE: Security is an INDIVIDUAL responsibility!
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by NA7CS on January 24, 2009
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The most frightening statement ever uttered.
"Hello, I am from the Government and I am here to help you."
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by N2OBM on January 24, 2009
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This is a spin off from the 'jam cell phones in jails' idea. In that article I assume that cell phones are restricted although it really didn't specify; but it stated they abundant and a 'safety' risk.
As a tactic, I would rather eavesdrop on a terrorist and use the 911 location beacon function to track him/her.
Just my 2 cents.
OBM
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KG6WOU on January 24, 2009
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N6AJR wrote: "I spent 8 years in the US air force in Electronic countermeasures repair. I fixed jammers.
At risk of devling in areas I still can not speak of, lets just say if the gov't wants to jam something, then they will.
no problem. "
Oh, I have no doubt that such technology exists or can be brought to existence quickly - it's not all that complicated.
However, in order to utterly disable all communications for a large area takes quite a bit of power and a lot of equipment - so I immediatly question practicality - example: Are you going to pre-position equipment EVERYWHERE? Good lord, at what cost man?
I think that besides the huge technical issues, one has to ask what you would gain - again, it's akin to closing the barn door after the horse has escaped.
If you meant bringing down the cell phone networks - I'd suggest that might be practical for short-term, local area operations if needed since they could order the providers to go dark, but to disrupt all radio traffic - commercial, public safety, amateur, how about Air Traffic Control? GPS, LORAN, VOR, Glidslopes, NDB's, commercial AM, FM and TV broadcasting, etc. etc. etc. for a large area? I just don't see how it could practically be accomplished.
Well, I can see one way, but it's sort of a single-time solution and it's not really a viable option since it's essentially far worse than the original problem...EMP.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by NA7CS on January 25, 2009
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Yep.. Bush is out and Saint Obama, the anointed one and his cronies are in.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KC8VWM on January 25, 2009
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I am perplexed because even if they are attempting to do this jamming in a "pin pointed" kind of way to avoid disrupting other forms of communications, ...Why would they want to bother?
What I mean to say is, if they actually know the location of the terrorists in order to deploy such pin pointed jamming technology, If they have physical access to that location and they have all this free time in the world on their hands to set up all this jamming equipment in that particular location -
Then..
Wouldn't it just be a much easier solution to just put on the riot gear and storm the place instead?
Just sayin'...
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KC8VWM on January 25, 2009
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K5FH,
The only way to make sure that you'll jam terrorists is to jam EVERYTHING, 24/7, starting NOW.
-------
They already are!
This occured when I was watching CNN and FOX News last night. The only reception I was getting was some talking heads with strings attached to thier mouths while they spouted off some meaningless drivel that had absolutely nothing to do with any actual jounalism or news events...
Did anyone else notice this sort of jamming occuring on the media networks recently?
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by W4LGH on January 25, 2009
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Naive? What an interesting word to use in this thread. All of you people elected these "Extra Smart" sweet talkers to govern you! Then you elected the dumbest of dumb to head up the government, now you want to cry, that's illegal, they won't do that. Then use the word NAIVE!
The government CAN and DOES do whatever it wants too, without ANY checks or balances, and NO recourse at all! You, the people GAVE them this power, and You the People can take it away! What is it going to take to get you on board with this? A direct personal attack on you and your family, before you wake up and smell the coffee? When they come directly after YOU, it's to late to do anything!
Your beloved NOBAMA was NOT the man to bring about CHANGE, he's just another lifetime career Professional Politician who was bought and paid for!
If you truly want CHANGE, you are going to have to get personally involved NOW, and make this CHANGE happen!
We need to FIRE everyone in DC, and start over, with Congress being voluntary as it started out in life, no retirements, no perks, just ordinary people looking out for the best interest of the country!
73 de W4LGH - Alan
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by WD8LIC on January 25, 2009
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That makes as much sense as trying to put your life preserver on AFTER you fall out of the boat into the water. These guys don't get it...name of the game is prevention.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by WA1RNE on January 25, 2009
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I know we live in tough times, but it's amazing to read the amount of negativity this quick story has garnered from our small but devote amateur community.
Some of you need to sit back and think about how many attacks the U.S. intelligence, law enforcement agencies and our allies have thwarted since 9/11.
Surely our advanced surveillance and countermeasures technologies have been largely responsible for staying ahead of the war on terror - a good portion of which is classified Top Secret, which means 99% of you have no clue what our true capabilities really are. That's a good thing because it keeps our enemies guessing, as it should be.
To quote a line from one of my favorite movies:
"Have a little faith, baby"
...WA1RNE
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by N0PWZ on January 25, 2009
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The government will do anything they want, anytime they want. Not mad at them, that's just the nature of the beast. If the government has no problem with such shenanigans, why should we (smiling here, don't need a lecture on FCC regs and why we should all follow them).
Jammers are not leading edge. They are cheap,
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.4355~r.21942391
and as you can see, basically an over the counter item.
Yes, yes I know. Big fine and time in the Pokey for this stuff, but we're not the government. We're little people.
Let's just say jamming is done commonly around the world, including extensive use in military theaters. It's quite a useful and beneficial tactic against IED's, and some other threats. As to effectiveness domestically, there are some applications in prisons and other areas, but I'm not entirely sure that the folks that are proposing this are the sharpest hatchets in the case. I suspect some government employees are just basking in the publicity glow that dim bulb journalists like to lavish on ideas that sound illicit to the general public.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KC8VWM on January 25, 2009
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We need to FIRE everyone in DC, and start over, with Congress being voluntary as it started out in life, no retirements, no perks, just ordinary people looking out for the best interest of the country!
------
So an "ordinary" person in this country would have to qualify as someone who is:
1. Unemployed with no health Benefits
2. Bad teeth because they have no dental plan.
2. Lost thier home recently. Lives under a bridge and wears old clothes.
3. No money invested in the stock market - No 401k plan or Social Security benefits.
That's who you are suggesting we should have elected as our next President?
:) 73
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by DG3YCC on January 25, 2009
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Here in germany police can shut down parts of the cell phone nets in the way that only law enforcements' or governments' mobiles have access to the nets.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by K8MHZ on January 25, 2009
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Thanks for the nomination, Charles.
Would you like to be my running mate?
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KB2DHG on January 25, 2009
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From the book of YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP...
HOW STUPID AND DANGEROUS CAN YOU GET!
Jamming communications is illegal and a life saving safety issue...
Any consideration of taking this into act is ludicrist!
STOP THE WORLD I WANT TO GET OFF!
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by AE5X on January 25, 2009
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It doesn't take any law enforcement agency to jam cell phones. Anyone with a few hundred bucks can do it - and quite effectively, I'm told:
http://www.globalgadgetuk.com/cell%20phone%20jammers.htm
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by WT0A on January 25, 2009
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There is a plan in place at the ffederal level to do just what the german fellow said, control the cell networks not jam them.
Glen
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KG6WOU on January 25, 2009
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There is a plan in place at the ffederal level to do just what the german fellow said, control the cell networks not jam them.
Glen
I can appreciate that there might be times this could be useful but mostly so that it can be saved for the responders who now use cell phone networks pretty heavily. I know my local PD uses Nextel phones for more secure traffic.
Being able to turn off the system and limit it to gov't users for a short period of time IS a realistic tactical weapon, but I fear that it is more of a benefit after some sort of event than before.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by W5BXE on January 25, 2009
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I was in Scotland when the terrorist bombings occurred in London, July of 2005. The government shutdown the cell phone system.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by RADIO123US on January 25, 2009
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I think the REAL question is how do we prevent a terrorist attack from ever occurring ? Our new president seems to think that being nice to them, and letting them go from Gitmo will help....he also thinks giving these non-citizen enemy combatant killers full Constitutional protection will also help......this is in the best case very naive on the new president's part, or in the worst case, it's treasonous....
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by K5END on January 25, 2009
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In this country the cell phone service is ALREADY tiered for users.
In a national emergency the tiers deemed appropriate would still be able to use the service.
The President and military are "tier one" and so on.
Police and fire are around tier 4, electric and natural gas utilities are usually tier 5, and Joe Common is around tier seven in most cases.
This is another example of how senseless, silly or just plain stupid the news media are. Even the news people call their own work a "story." There is a good reason for that.
Next thing you know the media will be telling us to watch out and prepare for December 21, 2012 because some idiot with a keyboard and an ISP thinks alignment of two or more arbitrarily-defined celestial coordinates somehow means something will happen. Even the kids failing physics 101 think it's a joke.
Like "they" say, "there is no truth in the news and no news in the truth."
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by K1OU on January 25, 2009
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I see that W4LGH and Radio123 are still crying like little bitches because the majority of Americans voted for a black man.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by RADIO123US on January 25, 2009
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K1OU said "I see that W4LGH and Radio123 are still crying like little bitches because the majority of Americans voted for a black man. "
I could care less what color his skin is...it's folks like you that seem to be obsessed with it though...no one else here except YOU has played the "race card"...
What I am concerned about though is that by letting down our guard, and releasing these dangerous criminals back into the world, we will INVITE an attack, not prevent it...I think ANY reasonable person should be able to see that....oooops, I guess your not one of them....
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by K1OU on January 25, 2009
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Per Radio123...
"K1OU said "I see that W4LGH and Radio123 are still crying like little bitches because the majority of Americans voted for a black man. "
I could care less what color his skin is...it's folks like you that seem to be obsessed with it though...no one else here except YOU has played the "race card"..."
America voted for a black man. You are crying like a little bitch because he was elected.
Show me something. Show me where we are better off than we were eight years ago.
I have a feeling that I will be waiting quite awhile.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KA8OCN on January 25, 2009
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Dont worry Oboma will save us.
Can I have some more Koolaid please.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by K1OU on January 25, 2009
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'OCN,
Share your work with us about how well the Republican party has served us...
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by W4LGH on January 25, 2009
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K1OU said..."I see that W4LGH and Radio123 are still crying like little bitches because the majority of Americans voted for a black man."
I am NOT crying, never have. I said he was just another Professional Politician, bought and paid for, just like the rest of them in DC.
I am screaming and NOT crying that America needs to WAKE UP! Electing a Black Man, 1/2 black, Red, yellow or Green, if he is a PROFESSIONAL POLITICIAN, isn't going to FIX anything in the GOVERNMENT! The GOVT is NOT BROKE for the Professional Politician, and works very well for those in Congress, Supreme Court and the Whitehouse! It does NOT work very well, for the people who PAY all the BILLS!
People need to STOP thinking that electing officials is the same as their FAVORITE TEAM winning the SuperBowl! Whoever wins the SuperBowl, will NOT affect my LIFE, its just entertainment. Our Government however is NOT a game, and WILL affect my life as well as everyone elses.
73 de W4LGH - Alan
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by N4ZAW on January 25, 2009
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I agree that it is an idiotic idea. Especially given that ANY type of Xmit/RX system can be used to trigger weapons of many kinds. Hell, with the addition of a solenoid controling a tv receiver's remote detector hooked to the linkage of accelerator cables of modern automobiles, a simple TV remote could stop all high speed pursuits!!
I hate to be so "Rube Goldbergian" here, but if they want to kill us, they WILL find a way (read: IED's).
Sure,officials can TRY to shut down systems, but to every measure, there will be a counter-measure.
But to stop "countering" is to capitulate.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KA5KMS on January 25, 2009
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Typical Federal concept. There couldn't be a worse time to jam communications. Danger and Beware, Bureaucratic Idiots at Work.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by RADIO123US on January 25, 2009
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K1OU said "America voted for a black man. You are crying like a little bitch because he was elected. "
Why is it so amazing to you that a black man was elected president ? Only a RACIST would find that amazing... I think it's amazing that it hasn't happened sooner...and I really wish it had....somehow, you keep trying to make this a racial issue, and I know it's because you have no defense for the poor lack of judgment President Obama has regarding the security of our country.....our new president wants to release the remaining 245 enemy combatant killers back into the world....now how does that make America a safer place ????...We have already seen examples on many news channels this weekend, where released prisoners from Gitmo went right back into terrorism...in fact one killed 19 in the attack on our embasy in Yemen.....so please explain how letting all of the remainder of these killers go will make use safer ???
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KE4DRN on January 25, 2009
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hi,
jam GPS ?
they can turn it off or adjust the precision of the system.
the terrorists will just stop at rat shack and buy
up the cb radios.
73 james
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RE: SHOW YOU SOMETHING?
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by KU2US on January 25, 2009
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OK! Name me one successful terrorist or ANY attack on US soil since 911! THIS says SOMETHING..It says that as much as some of you loathe Bush, HE is responsible for us not getting whacked, and they have tried..One of his promises was to keep Americans safe, and he did, history will show this, it is a fact. Now lets see if the "Annointed One" can match GW's persistance. Yes, he is off to a good start, he is letting terrorists go scott free. Like it was stated earlier, "Keep Your Powder Dry", your barrels clean and your radios on..
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RE: SHOW YOU SOMETHING?
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by K5END on January 25, 2009
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How are the stock prices doing for Fox News and AM Talk Radio companies?
Might be a good time to buy. Look what Clinton did for them.
:-)
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RE: SHOW YOU SOMETHING?
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by DWEISS on January 25, 2009
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What does this constant silliness about "no attacks on US soil since 911!" have to do with anything? If Bush and company were so successful, why did they allow the attacks on 911 to begin with? They cannot really take credit for one side of the equation without accepting blame for the other! After all, how many comparable foreign attacks were made on US soil before 911?
This is really getting tiresome. Apologies, this is even more tiresome since we should not allowed ourselves to be dragged into this foolishness on an amateur radio discussion site that has nothing whatsoever to do with such rantings.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by G1NOR on January 26, 2009
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Never heard such a lot of tosh in all my life. Even if the idea worked, how would you know you were in a terrorist situation until the bomb has gone off! Then you jam all comms! Who thought up this idea, Homer Simpson? doh......
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by RADIO123US on January 26, 2009
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DWEISS said "If Bush and company were so successful, why did they allow the attacks on 911 to begin with? "
911 would have never happened if Bill Clinton would have taken out Osama when he had that chance (and he did have the chance)......but Bill was far too worried about taking something else out to worry about our country....
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by WB3FTQ on January 26, 2009
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the police, in whatever form, federal, state, local, can not protect you no matter what they do; if that were true then crime would have ended somewhere around 40,000BC! "he that sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither freedom or security" Benjamin Franklin
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by K1OU on January 26, 2009
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DWeiss says...
"What does this constant silliness about "no attacks on US soil since 911!" have to do with anything? If Bush and company were so successful, why did they allow the attacks on 911 to begin with? They cannot really take credit for one side of the equation without accepting blame for the other! After all, how many comparable foreign attacks were made on US soil before 911?"
Show some compassion. It's the way BushCo tried to polish an eight year old turd.
Also, Bush had ample time and several warnings that something was up before 9/11. But as you see here, it's still the easy thing to blame Clinton because they have no merits of their own.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by WW5AA on January 26, 2009
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PPpppssssttt.
The US Military has had rapid deployment jammers for years. They are used to jam the VHF/UHF/Gig. Frequencies used to set off road side bombs and terrorist communications. Not so localized as they are integrated into the Star Wars satellites and aircraft. Boy, it would be nice if my cell phone was blocked until I retire and a few HF frequencies that come to mind. Remember, give up freedom for security and you will not have freedom or security. Let's turn the problem over to the Joint Chiefs of Staff....charge any government official including globalists that interferes with treason. Within one year the problem will be solved!
73 de Lindy
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KG4YMC on January 26, 2009
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IF THE MESSIA OBAMA, THE NEWYORK TIMES SAY'S ITS OK , THEN IT'S OK HU? WHY IS THERE NOSE GETTING LONGER? IF WE WANT TO NEGOTIATE WITH TERROIST , JUST GIVE THEM CALIFORNIA, NEW JERSEY, MA, AND EVEROTHER PLACE THAT KEEPS VOTEING IN THESE LIBERALS.. KG4YMC
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by K1OU on January 26, 2009
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Saith KG4YMC..
"IF THE MESSIA OBAMA, THE NEWYORK TIMES SAY'S ITS OK , THEN IT'S OK HU? WHY IS THERE NOSE GETTING LONGER? IF WE WANT TO NEGOTIATE WITH TERROIST , JUST GIVE THEM CALIFORNIA, NEW JERSEY, MA, AND EVEROTHER PLACE THAT KEEPS VOTEING IN THESE LIBERALS.. KG4YMC"
A case for remedial literacy if I have ever seen one.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KJ4DLG on January 26, 2009
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I don't believe it necessary to jam cellular communications. Seems the systems were already quite effectively jammed in and of themselves immediately after 9/11. As far as the legality of jamming,our wonderful government will do what ever it pleases, legal or not. Would be nice to be able to contact family and arrange responses to the situation.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KC8VWM on January 26, 2009
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I doubt any "trained" terrorist would be so stupid as to not know anything about any modern day technogogical government jamming devices we may or may not be using.
Clearly, and without any doubt, they would execute some sort of plan "B" to deal with that issue when required.
To completely ignore and discount that simple fact is just plain stupidity and incredibly naive on our part.
...or are WE really that stupid? I suspect the terrorists must be rolling on the floor laughing thier hearts out when they read about such a stupid plan of action.
... And yes.. I am pretty sure they do read about these things.
73
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KC8VWM on January 26, 2009
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"technogogical device"
..hmmm that's a new thing the government has that you haven't heard about yet. :)
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by RADIO123US on January 26, 2009
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K1OU said "A case for remedial literacy if I have ever seen one. "
Right from the poster child for media branwashing....LOL
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by N7YA on January 26, 2009
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You guys are getting carried away...again.
This isnt going to happen, period. If theres another attack, there is no department, fully trained and sitting idle, that will be waiting for their one big opportunity to shut it all down...this will accomplish nothing. Just more talking point spin, come on...you guys should be able to recognize this crap by now!
Furthermore, the fact that there hasnt been another 9/11 type attack on US soil means little. My guess is they only had that one shot in 'em.
Not that any of you are going to do this, but if you want to see some interesting stuff, go google "Loose Change: 2nd edition"...set aside some time to watch it and see what you feel when you are done....or you can be like a brick wall, watch 2 minutes of it and determine what the whole thing is about and turn it off while yelling at the screen...your choice.
And by the way, CA is under republican rule and for all intents and purposes turned into a red state during this last election...but i think some folks just like screaming in all caps, in poor grammar and ill advised.
Carry on.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KC8VWM on January 26, 2009
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N7YA on January 26, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
You guys are getting carried away...again.
This isnt going to happen, period. If theres another attack, there is no department, fully trained and sitting idle, that will be waiting for their one big opportunity to shut it all down...
--------
Obviously you have never seen or heard the humbling wrath of a fully equipped and deployed ham radio emcomm communications team in action!
Please move aside... Official business
:)
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by W7ETA on January 26, 2009
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Lets see.
A feasibility study to see if they can shut down communications inside a hotel if terrorists take it over (like they did in Mumbay)--makes sense.
eHammies response--priceless!
73
Bob
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by 5R8GQ on January 26, 2009
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If the government jams all communications, does that mean I can't hear the aliens talking to me through the device they implanted in my brain? It usually doesn't bother me much, but when I want to watch "I Love Lucy" I just put on my aluminum foil hat.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by N7YA on January 26, 2009
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Oh geez! I forgot about the emcomm guys....well, i have a different set of feelings about that.
The handful of capable Emcomm guys that wont get in the way, actually KNOW how to use their HT's, are UNDER 350 lbs, shower, have a working knowledge of the situation and can offer help aside from radio checks, etc....yes, those guys can be an asset.
Im sure there are some Emcomm teams going through a 2012 drill right now.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by W9OY on January 26, 2009
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I know, I know, we could set off a small nuke over the city and fry all the hand helds, and then we could whip out our old Collins stuff and save the day!!!!
73 W9OY
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by W4MEC on January 27, 2009
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Maybe we should bring back the old CONELRAD statiion shutdown box that was required many years ago on ham gear, and put it on cell sites. If so much police and fire supposrt is alread on cell systems, then it would make a better terrorist target than a channel for their mission.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by WA3SKN on January 27, 2009
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Can't be done under the FCC... it isn't legal, so this would have to be done by the military!
---And, they know better!
Mike.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by AA8VS on January 27, 2009
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At the moment [2009] we have more to fear from our government on a daily basis.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by W3JY on January 27, 2009
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You sir, K1OU, have a foul mouth and a filthy mind. You are a shame to our service and, in a better world, you would remove yourself from polite society.
Sincerely,
W3JY
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by AE6QF on January 27, 2009
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> W3JY. Please try to disenthrall yourself of the notion that you alone speak for polite society.
> Why do so many of our hyper-patriot hamster colleagues feel that they need use CAPS?
73, Quiet-Finger, AE6QF
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by NM2K on January 27, 2009
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Having freedom means that you are willing to take a few hits for the privilege of being free.
Even with all RF communications severed, terrorists can still activate bombs and other devices just by using other normally unthought of RF devices.
Cellphones are cheap and easy to use, but an RF based system can be made that is functionally adequate for not much more in cost than a cellphone. Would we want ALL RF frequencies jammed? The idea is dimwitted.
The plain truth is that we are never going to be able to prevent all terrorist attacks. Just as we are never going to be able to make everyone like us. It just isn't going to happen. That isn't how life works.
It is time that the other half of we Americans grew a spine and just accepted the fact that freedom is worth paying for with whatever it takes.
Ed, N2ECW/NM2K a while back
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by N5YPJ on January 27, 2009
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With all due respect this is one of the most foolish ideas I've heard in a long time.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by W3JY on January 27, 2009
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AE6QF: Indeed. It would seem to be be your department. No wonder ham radio is dying, with the likes of this as our "defenders".
Surely you have your reward. Back to more important matters: my family.
Oh, What caps???? Don't bother answering, it's a rhetorical question and I won't be back to read your magisterial response.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KA0YKO on January 27, 2009
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I'm not picking on you in particular, K4KRW, but just making a counter-observation...
> K4KRW - First of all. Federal law says
> jamming is illegal.
The Constitution states that we have a right to keep and bear arms - that shall not be infringed! (2nd Amendment)
If the highest law of the land (article VI) can't stop New York from infringing a constitutional right...
...what power does a federal law have that will stop them from deliberate jamming?
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by 2E0WAG on January 28, 2009
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It has been done with cellphones in the UK.
The UK government has a system called "access overload control" (ACCOLC) This restricts cellphone usage. Govt agencies, police etc, that have to have comms, have specially encoded SIM cards in their cellphones, and when the system is enabled (by ordering the cell network providers to do so) only those phones get through. Everyone else gets a busy signal.
This ensures that police etc have reliable cellphones, when otherwise the system would be swamped after a disaster or major incident, and also prevents remote operation of IED's etc by cellphones.
This system was used after the terrorist bombings in London in July 2005.
Only months after the event, and after being pressurised, did the Metroplitan Police very, very reluctantly admit so.
Like a previous poster said, regarding jammers, rightly or not, the govt can do as they wish at the time.
Google
Dave
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by K1OU on January 28, 2009
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Per W3JY...
"You sir, K1OU, have a foul mouth and a filthy mind. You are a shame to our service and, in a better world, you would remove yourself from polite society.
Sincerely,
W3JY"
You don't know me well enough to know my mind. Go put on an orange vest and get in the way at a public service event.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by 5R8GQ on January 28, 2009
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RADIOUSA123
"where released prisoners from Gitmo went right back into terrorism...in fact one killed 19 in the attack on our embasy in Yemen.....so please explain how letting all of the remainder of these killers go will make use safer ???"
None of these released persons were charged, tried, or convicted under the oh so great, holy and infallible "System Of U.S. Justice" that you American "super patriots" are always puffing yourselves up about, and proud that you are protected by. They were held for years without being charged, denied counsel, tortured, denied communications with family, denied medical care, Red Cross visits for years, the list goes on and on. All because of "The T word" Terrorist! GASP! If they truly were guilty, why not hold an OPEN international tribunal a la Nuhrenburg?
Because Bush being Bush,too stupid to do anything SMART, he decides he has to do SOMETHING...like lie about weapons of mass destruction and invade soveriegn countries, detain anyone he feels like, etc.
As the Nov 4th edition of the London Mirror said:
"How can 59 million people be so DUMB?
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by DD5FZ on January 29, 2009
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> why is the media still allowed to broadcast
> stories about what the U.S. maybe thinking
> of doing in an effort to protect us from a
> possible attack.doesnt seem right
First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by RADIO123US on January 29, 2009
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5R8GQ said "None of these released persons were charged, tried, or convicted under the oh so great, holy and infallible "System Of U.S. Justice" that you American "super patriots" are always puffing yourselves up about, and proud that you are protected by."
The last count was 68 Americans killed by the "non-charged" prisoners that have already been released. You really NEED to get your head out of the sand and wake up....these are REALLY bad people that we are holding there....Liberals like yourself are quick to condemn Bush for locking them up at Gitmo, but arn't real quick to volunteer to keep them in their own neighborhood....why is that ?
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by DD5FZ on January 29, 2009
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> these are REALLY bad people that we are holding there
And pray tell, how do you know this without a fair trial?
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by RADIO123US on January 29, 2009
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Once again, if you would get your head out of the sand and actually look, you would see....your hatred for George Bush is so great it has clouded your brain....here's an example
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/26/terror/main4754635.shtml
This is a CBS News story, so you can't claim "right wing" bias....
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by DD5FZ on January 29, 2009
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If I understand correctly, you seriously think that a news story by CBS is an adequate ersatz for a trial in a court of law.
Wow!
I would never have thought that a media network had this kind of jurisdiction.
Amazing...
PS: You might want to try reading the Sixth Amendment in the Bill of Rights.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KD8ELY on January 29, 2009
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Since this internet thing here, you have all been looking at happens to be um, what do they call it, oh yeah, WORLD WIDE! these "terrorist" have been reading this article and comments taking in these ideas and already replanning. Growing up i was always told if you put your mind to it, you can do anything. I;m pretty darn sure no matter what the gov., us as hams, or even joe shmoe from next door does, "terrorist" WILL attack something. A post earlyier also said that a terrorist main goal is to manipulate how we think, and make us scared, well look at this, the police have "thought" about this, and were all "scared" of what it's going to affect. Now I might only be 18 and can only remember 2 presidentcies, I don't remember eaither of them being that great. Everyperson in the world has problems of some sort, EVERYPERSON! So we need to stop blaming everyone else, stop, and re-evaluate our current situation. Now to say about Obama, would everyone stop bad mouthing him, how long has the man been in office? Not long enough to really see how his plans are going to work out. OK his gitmo plan kinda back fired, but remember how i said EVERYPESON has problems of some sort. Right now the only thing I can see working right now in protecting our country is and old policy put in by a past president, "Speak softly and carry a big stick" -Teddy Roosevelt
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by RADIO123US on January 29, 2009
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DD5FZ said "PS: You might want to try reading the Sixth Amendment in the Bill of Rights. "
Since when do NON-AMERICAN enemy combatants get Rights under our Constitution ???....Please show me in the Constitution where it says that ....Liberal "Terrorist Huggers" like yourself seem to want these thugs and killers to have the same rights and protections all American Citizens.... I hope we NEVER see a terrorist attack again, but if it happens, I'm certain it will be because LIBERALS like you don't have the backbone to stand up and do what is necessary to protect this nation...
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KC2OYZ on January 29, 2009
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This is the best counter-terrorism idea I've heard since Tom Ridge told everyone to buy duct tape...
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by WO1O on January 29, 2009
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It's nice to see all the Chicken Little's come out of their closets with the thought they might lose some frequency time or cell phone time during a terrorist crisis. I for one would rather thwart the terrorist's with some broadband jamming & selective power outages than run the risk of successful chemical or other types of warfare. I suspect the jamming/power outage duration would be relatively short resulting in the reduced probability of a successful attack. I am glad someone is thinking outside the box.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by DD5FZ on January 30, 2009
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> Since when do NON-AMERICAN enemy combatants get
> Rights under our Constitution ???
Among others, you might want to read and (hopefully) understand this from the Supreme Court of the United States: <http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/06-1195.pdf>
Also worth reading:
<http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/y3gctpw.htm>
<http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/ihl?OpenDocument>
The above has nothing to do with being a liberal or a conservative, but has a lot to do with being a decent human being.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by DD5FZ on January 30, 2009
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By the way, the U.S. signed (5 Oct 1977) and ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. In other words the below legally binding.
Article 7
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. In particular, no one shall be subjected without his free consent to medical or scientific experimentation.
Article 9
1. Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest or detention. No one shall be deprived of his liberty except on such grounds and in accordance with such procedure as are established by law.
2. Anyone who is arrested shall be informed, at the time of arrest, of the reasons for his arrest and shall be promptly informed of any charges against him.
3. Anyone arrested or detained on a criminal charge shall be brought promptly before a judge or other officer authorized by law to exercise judicial power and shall be entitled to trial within a reasonable time or to release. It shall not be the general rule that persons awaiting trial shall be detained in custody, but release may be subject to guarantees to appear for trial, at any other stage of the judicial proceedings, and, should occasion arise, for execution of the judgement.
4. Anyone who is deprived of his liberty by arrest or detention shall be entitled to take proceedings before a court, in order that that court may decide without delay on the lawfulness of his detention and order his release if the detention is not lawful.
5. Anyone who has been the victim of unlawful arrest or detention shall have an enforceable right to compensation.
Article 14
1. All persons shall be equal before the courts and tribunals. In the determination of any criminal charge against him, or of his rights and obligations in a suit at law, everyone shall be entitled to a fair and public hearing by a competent, independent and impartial tribunal established by law. The press and the public may be excluded from all or part of a trial for reasons of morals, public order (ordre public) or national security in a democratic society, or when the interest of the private lives of the parties so requires, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice; but any judgement rendered in a criminal case or in a suit at law shall be made public except where the interest of juvenile persons otherwise requires or the proceedings concern matrimonial disputes or the guardianship of children.
2. Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall have the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.
3. In the determination of any criminal charge against him, everyone shall be entitled to the following minimum guarantees, in full equality:
(a) To be informed promptly and in detail in a language which he understands of the nature and cause of the charge against him;
(b) To have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence and to communicate with counsel of his own choosing;
(c) To be tried without undue delay;
(d) To be tried in his presence, and to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing; to be informed, if he does not have legal assistance, of this right; and to have legal assistance assigned to him, in any case where the interests of justice so require, and without payment by him in any such case if he does not have sufficient means to pay for it;
(e) To examine, or have examined, the witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(f) To have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court;
(g) Not to be compelled to testify against himself or to confess guilt.
4. In the case of juvenile persons, the procedure shall be such as will take account of their age and the desirability of promoting their rehabilitation.
5. Everyone convicted of a crime shall have the right to his conviction and sentence being reviewed by a higher tribunal according to law.
6. When a person has by a final decision been convicted of a criminal offence and when subsequently his conviction has been reversed or he has been pardoned on the ground that a new or newly discovered fact shows conclusively that there has been a miscarriage of justice, the person who has suffered punishment as a result of such conviction shall be compensated according to law, unless it is proved that the non-disclosure of the unknown fact in time is wholly or partly attributable to him.
7. No one shall be liable to be tried or punished again for an offence for which he has already been finally convicted or acquitted in accordance with the law and penal procedure of each country.
Article 26
All persons are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to the equal protection of the law. In this respect, the law shall prohibit any discrimination and guarantee to all persons equal and effective protection against discrimination on any ground such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KC2OYZ on January 30, 2009
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DD5FZ -
None of this has anything to do with amateur radio or the topic of the article. Nonetheless, since you are determined to show off your very annoying self-rightousness and legal 'expertise' I must remind you, and everyone else, that coming from Germany you really shouldn't be talking. All those nice treaties and documents were created and signed in an attempt to make sure that nobody did what your country did under the leadership of Adolph Hitler - don't go showing off your guilty conscience to us Americans - as Mr. Obama recently said - 'there is a difference in philosophy here, but WE WON'.
Go back to your radio stop lecturing us please.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by W0ARN on January 30, 2009
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Large area, blanket jamming of cell phones is very likely not part of the equation here. However, very localized jamming of the cell phone of a terrorist holed up in a known location, as was the case in Mumbai, I could see as being useful.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KC2OYZ on January 30, 2009
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DD5FZ -
Also I UNDERSTAND very well all of your treaties and documents - what you fail to understand is that when individuals are captured on a field of battle or when emergency measures are in place because of risk to national security, criminal law is irrelevant. Have you ever heard of Abraham Lincoln, or Thomas Jefferson, or the numerous SCOTUS decision that have been handed down on these matters? If you're going to start quoting things, please quote that which is appropriate.
As for Mr. Obama's handling of Gitmo, I believe (I hope....) that this was done as a Public Relations stunt - there are other ways of handling bad guys without being so public about it...
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by DD5FZ on January 30, 2009
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I'm sorry - I know this is somewhat off topic, however I feel it is necessary to reply.
Dear KC2OYZ,
1) I am a citizen of the United States of America. At present, I live in Europe.
2) Your comments about Adolph Hitler are inappropriate, tasteless and, if you will excuse me being frank, dumb.
3) Your claim that "criminal law is irrelevant" is a fallacy. Otherwise one could no longer consider the United States to be a constitutional state with rule of law.
4) I am very aware of Lincoln's extra-constitutional measures and at times dictatorial style of government. While I understand why this occurred, I consider it a blemish on his record of otherwise remarkable achievements.
5) Thomas Jefferson has always been something of a riddle to me. How could a man who wrote "Under the law of nature, all men are born free, every one comes into the world with a right to his own person, which includes the liberty of moving and using it at his own will. This is what is called personal liberty, and is given him by the Author of nature, because necessary for his own sustenance" own slaves?
6) I sincerely believe that the closure of Gitmo and the various illegal imprisonment facilities run by government agencies in third countries is not a publicity stunt. The return of the United States to values which make the country so special, needs to be more than just a false hope.
7) I sorry that I strayed off topic, but imho a weltanschauung such as displayed by RADIO123US is very dangerous and, for me personally, infuriating.
I'll now be quiet about this here - you can reach me at loch-schwarz [asperand] bayern-mail.de
vy 73 de DD5FZ
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KC2OYZ on January 30, 2009
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DD5FZ
Your reply is replete with the same ignorance and self-rightousness that characterizes your other posts.
But, since this is a radio website, I won't bother to reply. Go to a political blog and you'll find all the opinions and debates you want. We are on this blog to talk about radio. If you want to mix radio with politics, consider a career as a radio talk show host.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KB1RNV on January 30, 2009
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Seems like there's a whole long page of knee jerk hasty reactions to a knee jerk hasty reaction by NY.
Someone with no concept of how communications works probably chimed in with the silly idea in a meeting with a bunch of other professional middle management gov't types with no concept. It won't fly, as it is assinine. Everyone relax. I bet the NSA guys got a huge laugh out of the deal tho- which is cool since they really don't have much of a sense of humor there from what I've seen.
N6AJR- I've probably used your equipment in a previous gig. Thanks for your service.
Capabilities aren't the problem, implementation is a b*tch.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by RADIO123US on January 31, 2009
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DD5FZ, it's obvious that you care more about the rights of the killers and thugs than you do about the rights of law abiding American citizens....we have a word for folks like that....TRAITORS....
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KC2EEB on January 31, 2009
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On 9-11-01 My wife (KC2EEA) and I (KC2EEB) were living in Suffolk County with my mother living in Brooklyn. We were both ready to jump to the defense of this country.
New York, both the city and the state, and the Democratic Party, did everything in it's power to sabotage the administration and the country, all for the purpose of political gain. They even managed to turn the population of New York City against the Bush administration ultimately and only for the purpose of putting the Democratic Party back as a ruling majority.
I have NO sympathy for New York and New York City, and I lived my life to the age of 50 there and called it home.
To those who still live there, you've made your own bed.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by N0YXB on January 31, 2009
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Speaking out does not make one a traitor. It takes courage, which radio123us seems to lack, hiding behind the keyboard as he/she does. Or maybe John Smith is your real name as listed in your profile? Doubtful.
Vince
N0YXB
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by RADIO123US on February 1, 2009
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N0YXB said "Speaking out does not make one a traitor. It takes courage, which radio123us seems to lack, hiding behind the keyboard as he/she does. Or maybe John Smith is your real name as listed in your profile? Doubtful. "
Giving aid and comfort to the enemy does make one a traitor, and that is what DD5FZ is suggesting...and yes, my real name is John Smith....sorry, I had no choice in that matter....
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by K1OU on February 1, 2009
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It's obvious that Radio123 is a fascist coward.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by RADIO123US on February 1, 2009
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K1OU saied "It's obvious that Radio123 is a fascist coward. "
It's funny how the LIBERALS so quickly use the term "fascist" when they have absolutely no way to defend their anti-American beliefs...I thought you were smarter than that, and could actually come up with something intelligent...I guess I was wrong...
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by K1OU on February 1, 2009
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Show me where I have posted anything anti-American.
And, it is very fascist to accuse one of being unpatriotic simply because one does not agree with another.
With you, it isn't about intelligence, it's obviously about ignorance, as you know no better.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by DD5FZ on February 1, 2009
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Anti-Americanism?
Since when has a call for due process of law and adherence to national and international law been anti-Americanism?
Since when have illegal deprivation of liberty, illegal CIA renditions and torture been American ideals?
To make this clear, I have no sympathy with terrorists, and equally I have no sympathy the violation of basic principles of human rights.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by RADIO123US on February 1, 2009
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DD5FZ, Here's a great example of what I am talking about...I can't claim authorship of this example, but it's a great example how someone like you is anti-american.
Let's imagine American law enforcement or military authorities have captured a terrorist mastermind who has knowledge about an imminent nuclear detonation in an unknown American city. He knows the time, the location and the details about the warhead. The bomb could be going off at any minute. It could kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Would you really want waterboarding or any torture to be banned under all circumstances? What alternatives would you suggest for quick results? Should we call in top negotiators from the State Department? Should we play loud rap music? Should we force the prisoner to listen to Hillary Rodham Clinton speeches? While I would also find those experiences unpleasant, I don't think they would produce the needed results in time to defuse the bomb.
Since you are SOOOOO interested in the "basic human rights" of people who want to kill us, how would you solve this issue ??? Your ideas of "playing nice" with these killers would end up killing many innocent people.....that's as anti-american as it gets...
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KC2OYZ on February 1, 2009
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RADIO123US,DD5FZ:
Neither of you guys is saying anything new at all. You are just repeating the dialog that millions have been engaging in for the last 4 or 5 years. So why don't you just cut it out.
Having said that, as an impartial observer, I believe that RADIO123US is entirely correct and has said nothing whatsoever 'dangerous' or 'offensive' and has clearly demonstrated why DD5FZ is the 'dangerous' one on this thread.
As for DD5FZ's claims to American citizenship, I tend to doubt them, but it's irrelevant - he certainly thinks like a sanctimonious European - those very same Europeans who were at constant war with one another for 1000 years until the USA stepped in 60 years ago, kicked the living daylights out of them, and made them promise to play nice together. Yet now, only a few years later, they have now forgotten everything and think that they can lecture America about 'human rights'. What a bunch of hypocritical ingrates.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by WE0Z on February 2, 2009
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Just another knee-jerk reaction that will have a limited effect but short-lived. Like encrytion techniques they WILL be compromised over time just as this idea will be compromised to continue if they perpetrator is determined to commit the act.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by K1OU on February 2, 2009
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Radio123...
A day later, I again ask you to show me where I have spewed any anti-America remarks.
It doesn't surprise me that you can't.
Typical neocon stupidity...make idiotic comments that they can't back up. By an anonymous coward nonetheless.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KI6SDY on February 3, 2009
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I dont think it would be a good idea, it would create more problems, and there is alot more than just cell phones to commucate with.
KI6SDY, CHRIS
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KG4CLD on February 5, 2009
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How about the authorities monitoring the frequencies for signs of foul play and acting on them BEFORE things happen. Jamming the frequencies after the fact is like spraying for termites after they've eaten all the wood in the house!
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KG4CLD on February 5, 2009
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To remark about politics, I was under the impression this was "AMATEUR RADIO", not "C-SPAN." The topic is about whether or not jamming would prevent terrorist from communicating or if it just wipes out most viable communications? Political opinions omitted, let's keep to the topic fellas!
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by K7AAB on February 7, 2009
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So if the NYPD get jamming capability than it will already be known to the public as NYPD can't do anything in secret it seems. So the terrorists I am sure are intelligent enough to have a back up plan. Marine radio, ham radio, blue dot business band , FRS, CB, wireless mics. There are plenty of viable options right off Ebay. Terrorists the type we deal with here in the US are not stupid, I am sure they know what they can use. And the cameraman from the local TV station that is not used to being in any kind of combat won't be around to very long after bombs and shooting starts to get any long camera shot at anything if he happens or to be lucky enough to be in the area swat teams are in. I think the better plan would be to plan swat team movements away from the cameras to begin with may be the better action and should be part of the information that ground commanders should be gathering before the teams arrive.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KM6CQ on February 7, 2009
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I think the general public will go along with this.
They will just believe that the government knows what is best for them. They assume when they give up some more personal liberty the government will keep them safe and provide for their needs. Any voice of decent will be met with phrases like, your being selfish,unpatriotic,extreme,uncaring,narrow minded,subjective. And all the terms they like to use for those who will not come into the fold of their paradigm. God help us not to become spoon fed Americans.
Best Regards, Dan
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by WB4LFC on February 8, 2009
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Seems like a good idea? The inocent people in the affected areas need to be able to communicate with each other for various reasons.For example to find love ones,steer one another to safety,assistane,etc.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KC8VWM on February 8, 2009
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
Reply by K0ZL on January 24, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
I hope New Yorkers will think through this proposal and reprimand those responsible for such an idea even making out of the "brainstorm" session. This is most idiotic. "We're under attack!"..."OK, cut cellphone and pager traffic NOW!"..."Duh, alright!"..."Wait a minute until after I call my wife to tell her to get the kids and leave town!"..."Too late, already done!". Yeah.
---
Bill (K0ZL) is now a SK due to a tragic accident.
Please consider helping his family with a paypal donation.
http://www.k0zlmemorialfund.com/
Thank You.
Bill will truely be missed.
Charles Bushell - KC8VWM
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by NB2A on February 9, 2009
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It sickens me to think all that of all us who were present and those who were lost on that terrible day 9/11/01 still really see no closure even to this as an issue.There is no real difference in the current communications systems than prior to 9/11 except for money wasted to accomplish it!
Just like everything else in this great country most want the government to solve all their problems but fail to realize it costs plenty of lives and money as well to do just that.Just what we need more government intervention to keep us safe and solvent for that matter.
One post brings up Hitler well guess what we are not much better here as of late with the need for the government to run our lives.Again I love this country but the current solutions are like throwing ...it against the wall until it sticks.STIMULUS right!
Unless we all wake up as a group and not one of two useless political parties we are sure headed for worse than we have all been witness too.
All of the career politicians let us arrive at this crossroad. Does anyone actually think they can get us out? Keep drinking the kool-aid and hope for the best!
You can look up my credentials on QRZ to see if I can share this as my point of view.I am sure though there will be many who would like to stop me from doing so but too bad.
NB2A
Retired NYPD police officer since 2003 and many years a communication expert.
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by KD8Z on February 9, 2009
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Please don't let Pelosi and Reid get a hold of this, they will be jamming the entire nations cell phones along with confiscation of ham equipment.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by AB1JB on February 10, 2009
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So they are only going after cell phones? I paraphrase "First they came for the Jews but I said nothing because I was not a Jew..."
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by N6HPX on February 11, 2009
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As I recall hearing the attack was made beforew the knowledge of the cellphones were being used so how can you jam something that was suppose to be a sort of secret unless there monitoring our cell phones and our text messages. So maybe I better not tell my wife I will be late coming home as it might give me away as being a terrorists...hmm,strange ideas indeed..
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by AD7VH on February 12, 2009
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I think that people should reevaluate their views of the government. First of all, wasn't it Bush who, with his cronies, that pushed so hard for the Patriot Act? If there has ever been anymore of a blatant abuse of individual civil rights than the anti-Patriot Act, I have yet to see one.
All politicians live a life where they don't have to experience life as the rest of us. However, Bush is so unbelievable oblivious to the needs of the average American.
If this plan of action using jamming is implemented, then we have put too much control in the governments hands. I don’t care who is in office, their skin color, or their political affiliation, this would be too much.
There just seems to be too many people that are using this as an opportunity to express there dislike for the current administration, or perhaps it is to show that they have some kind of an agenda. We know that all politicians are crooked to some degree -- that is why they are in politics. Well, we could have had a half-wit, arrogant woman from Alaska and a burned out old man from Arizona in the White House! After 8 years of a dim-witted, puppet from Texas, I had enough.
As always, these forums turn into something that they were not intended to. However, it is always fun to witness the ignorant and naïve perspectives that are expressed following these articles!
John, AD7VH
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RE: In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by WB4TJH on February 13, 2009
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An absolutely IDIOTIC idea that must have been fostered by some dunghead bureaucrat.
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In Terror Attack, Jam Communications?
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by WB4QNG on February 13, 2009
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Got a question related to this. I read that in Oklahoma city cell phone service to the public was still very spotty after the recent weather because public service was using 80% of the channels. While I can understand how they could do this I didn't have any idea that cell phone towers had this in place. I would guess public service providers have phones with PL tones on them and during emergencies they flip a switch and only these phones go through and the rest of the public is blocked. Is this true? Ham radio is looking better every day.
Terry
WB4QNG
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