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1-10 of 10 messages
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Need Help County Gov't at its' finest Tucson AZ
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by KD7HVL on September 15, 2008
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This is The facts. Purchased a Home in Pima County, Arizona. I have been a resident of the county for over 20 years and have never had any issues with towers or antennas. I checked with county numerious times via phone on subject of towers, response "no problem permit required, $3.50 bring down a plot plan 3 1/2 hours and your done". "anything 100 feet and under and on your property OK no set backs". I called before putting offer in on property same response, at closing same response, 2 weeks after closing same response etc. Same answer. I go down to county to get permit for a 40 foot Rohn BX 40 tower used. No problem getting thru zoning plot plan fine, but I need to get thru Safty ie the building inspectors. 1st qustion "Where are the plans for the tower", go back home, down load specs along with engineering wind loading from website, go back to county, we need a wet stamp. What you need is a certified PE togo over plans and wet stamp them for us to give you a permit. Now the nightmare begins. Upon numerous talks with county I find out they adopted a new buildiing code 3 years ago International building code 2006 and did not exclude residential towers and antennas as they did prior. Thus as now explained to me by the head county building inspector all antennas and towers need to be evaluated and they will tell me what needs to be structually vrified by a PE and stamped off. they have looked thru the code and can not grant a variance or waver due to the fact the codes do not allow it, and as such the county would be under a libelity not following the code. Even if it is my tower , will fall on my property etc. This code as it is now stands classifies all towers, masts, and antennas the same for residential and commercial applications. I asked what about TV antennas and my answer was well if its 3 foot TV antenna on a 5 foot mast stuck on top of a house we won't bother with it. I tried PBR-1 this went thru county attorny and not applicable as towers are permited via the zoning code. Been off the air for the last few years as I was a renter and looked foward to getting back on. Most amateurs I have talked to tell me to just put up what I want and forget it as the county doesn't know what its doing half the time. I just do not have the funds to hire the attornys' to fight this, nore do I know where to even go. Currently emails are going back and forth bettween my county supervisor and myself asking them to make it right. ANYONE that thinks they mite give me a little help or info on what I should do next would be appreciated. PS: I did get a response from a worker in the supervisors office that said she was sorry I was miss informed.
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RE: Need Help County Gov't at its' finest Tucson A
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by WB2WIK on September 15, 2008
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Sorry you had such a bad experience.
I guess it's too late to advise to *never* accept anything verbally, always get statements in writing and make sure they're dated and signed by someone who actually represents the city or county and is authorized to advise you.
Since it's too late for that, you might try contacting this ARRL Volunteer Counsel:
John Cline, K7ESQ
3200 N. Central Avenue, Suite 2300
Phoenix, AZ 85012
Day Phone: 602-256-0000
Evening Phone: 602-751-4422
Fax: 602-256-2488
Email address: john.cline@knchlaw.com
Year admitted to bar: 1989
Job title/Firm: Koeller, Nebeker, Carlson & Haluck, LLP
States licensed in: AZ, MI
Areas of Specialization: General civil practice
You may get free advice or help.
Good luck!
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Need Help County Gov't at its' finest Tucson A
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by KD7HVL on September 15, 2008
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Kinda why I made the post. We have many people looking to retire to Arizona. You would expect to get the straight info from county gov't. NOT SO.
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RE: Need Help County Gov't at its' finest Tucson A
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by KB9CRY on September 15, 2008
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they will tell me what needs to be structually vrified by a PE and stamped off.
This is standard, as far as I'm concerned. It's all about safety and no structure, even Amateur towers, should be exempt. Just do what they say and get an SE or PE (check personally in person to what they want, an SE or PE?) and go back and pay your permit fees and do what they say. They hold the upper hand; you do not. It's all about networking with people.
Oh, and as you found out, speaking to the folks who answer the phones isn't the way to determine what the requirements are(they probably don't know themselves). You NEED to do IN PERSON and speak face to face. Go early in the morning and bring donuts. Works every time.
Note: Posted since many retired folks may face the same dilemma. Once you have the county folks on your side; continued life in the county will be golden.
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RE: Need Help County Gov't at its' finest Tucson A
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by KD7HVL on September 15, 2008
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Hello, well I did go down and spoke to the manager of zoning department. Problem was he was not aware of the changes in the building codes as he was not in the building inspection department. ie the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing. He never even suggested I check with them for there input. matter of fact he left me with impresion the building permit was either approved or rejected in zoning, as I was suprised when I needed to go to the building inspection department for there sign off. The building inspectors want a PE to sign off on the windloading of the tower and something else. My problem is the least expensive PE I can find is $1000.00+ and this is if the county dosen't question anything, other wise the cost goes up for the additional work. A new Rohn tower of this model is less than 800.00 so we are not talking a large tower here. I do have one advantage in that the tower is a Rohn and I was able to pull the engineering specs from the web site, other wise, as I was told, would require a full blown reverse engineering effort.
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RE: Need Help County Gov't at its' finest Tucson A
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by WW5AA on September 16, 2008
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I'll bet that the Radio Society of Tucson would be able to give you some insite.
73 de Lindy
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RE: Need Help County Gov't at its' finest Tucson A
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by W0MT on September 18, 2008
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I agree with KB9CRY. Any structures being errected including Ham towers should have specific drawings and specifications signed off by a PE. PRB-1 can't tell a local government that they have to accept the errection of Ham towers or any other structures without first insuring the design meets all applicable standards. This is a matter of public safety.
As to the comment that you should have gotten the assurance that all you needed was an approval by zoning in writing, it probably would not have helped you. The only way it might have helped you is that whoever was giving you the written assurance might have made sure the statement was correct. In general, even if a government official tells you something, verbally or in writing, if it turns out to be wrong, that's your problem.
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RE: Need Help County Gov't at its' finest Tucson A
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by K5LXP on September 18, 2008
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> the least expensive PE I can find is $1000.00+
Keep looking. I just looked up what mine cost, $198. I think if you start with something that slam-dunks the specification with clear documentation and widespread installation history, you make the job much easier for them vs the light duty TV stuff you're proposing to put in. Consider too that the permitting is just a fraction of the total cost. Concrete, feedlines, hardware, guys, antennas of course, on and on. When you consider the overhead of any tower, it doesn't seem worth it to cheap out and use a light duty, short tower. If it all doesn't seem "worth it" to you, walk away now because this is just the beginning.
Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
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RE: Need Help County Gov't at its' finest Tucson A
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by KB9CRY on September 19, 2008
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For my towers permits I had to convince my county folks that they needed to issue me a permit (wanted to be official in case I get annexed in the future). What convinced them was this statement, "I'm installing structural concrete foundations with rebar, you NEED to inspect that, that's what you do." They admitted, "You're right, OK we'll allow you to submit a permit application."
The PE fee you've been quoted is very high but I think that if all you did was telephone around, then that would be a not to exceed high estimate.
To reduce cost, you need to do some clerical work. What you want to do is prepare all the design documents into a package (ask how many copies the county wants then add two to that number, one for the PE and one for your records). Make a copy of your plot survey and pencil cad in your tower location. Draft a summary letter that will go to the county; describe overall what you are doing.
Then draft another cover letter which will be a request for quotation from a PE. Then send one copy of the entire package to various PEs for their review and quotation of the job.
The package should include every pertinant Rohn drawing and specification sheet there is. Use the Rohn online catalog. The Rohn BX section drawing, the foundation schedule, the concrete spec sheet, the bolts sheet, etc.
In the PE cover letter what you want to request of the PE is to take the Rohn supplied tower loading and overturning moment data, combined with the suggested Rohn foundation details and verify that it will work with the local soil conditions. This is really all the PE needs to sign off on. They are not supposed to redesign the tower, just verify the foundation based on their knowledge of the local soil conditions.
There is no need anywhere to discuss or mention what antennas you plan on putting on the tower; you're getting a tower permit, not an antenna permit.
Now, word of caution: That Rohn BX tower has a stated maximum wind loading (and also a maximum boom length specification). This applys to any tower. If you yourself overload the tower and something bad happens, then you are violating the permit conditions and also the PE design verification and you leave yourself wide open legally. So ensure that is the tower you want and will meet future needs. The actual cost of the tower is a small portion of the total installed cost of any tower (except crank-ups).
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RE: Need Help County Gov't at its' finest Tucson A
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by WB2WIK on September 19, 2008
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Good point about the Rohn BX. It's only rated to support antennas having a boom length (or maximum element length) of ten feet or less.
If the PE wants to know the antenna details as part of his investigation, you'll need to supply him with that data in addition to the tower specifications and the stamp may be contingent upon using exactly the antenna(s) specified.
I've been through that one before!
WB2WIK/6
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