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eHam.net Survey
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Survey Question
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VEC Testing Fee...What is the right amount?
Posted: Apr 26, 2009
(1692 votes, 185 comments)
by AI4ET
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Survey Results
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$15 or more
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28% (474)
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$12 - $14
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22% (374)
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$9 - $11
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19% (321)
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$6 - $8
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5% (89)
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$1 - $5
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5% (81)
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FREE
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21% (353)
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Survey Comments
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VE Fees
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The VE team of which I have been a member for over 3 years, has never taken any reimbursement. We consider it a totally voluntary service to fellow Amateurs....not a part time job!!
Posted by
WX1F
on September 27, 2009
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"Every ARRL/VEC session I am aware of, none of the fee has been retained by any of the VE's. I didn't say every session everywhere, just the ones I know of locally in Ohio."
As are the ones I know of where I am. No VE retains any of the fee for his own PERSONAL uses. Copying, envelopes, mailing costs only. NOTHING ELSE!
Posted by
K1CJS
on June 15, 2009
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73
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BTW I agree the ARRL/VEC fees are currently too high for what is involved on their end.
Alright I'm off my soapbox and won't be back to check replies. Have fun fighting and arguing and chopping what others say, I'm going to go donate some time to help my county get prepared for Skywarn season. 73
KD8FTR
Ashland county, Ohio skywarn coordonator
Posted by
KD8FTR
on June 14, 2009
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Now children, let's play nice
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Ok come on. If you are going to quote someone, quote THE WHOLE STATEMENT, not pieces you want to use. I am involved in sykwarn and ARES, it cost me no out of pocket expence save time and travel. Time is not an out of pocket expence, nor is it reimbursable. However, having to go to the cornerstore that has copier and run off 50 test sheets @ $.15 per page is and should be.
You guys complaining about the fee should be happy Uncle Sam himself isn't there with his hand out setting and collecting the fee.
Every ARRL/VEC session I am aware of, none of the fee has been retained by any of the VE's. I didn't say every session everywhere, just the ones I know of locally in Ohio.
Posted by
KD8FTR
on June 14, 2009
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Here it goes again!
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".....I would like to thank KD8FTR for breaking that down for us, finally! Now you know that almost half of your test fee can go into the VE's pocket. Again, if there are 20 testers and two VEs, they can take in $70.00 each for a test session. Not bad for two hours work....."
The expenses have to be directly related to the testing--and the ARRL at least CHECKS THOSE EXPENSES. The VEs cannot just keep that money. If they can't PROVE those expenses, the ARRL goes after them for the money. 'SDY is talking out his A$$.
Posted by
K1CJS
on June 14, 2009
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Let's Put This One To Rest
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This survey has been up front too long. Let's get a new survey instead of ragging on each other. How can a boring survey question like this stir up such animosity?
We are all amateur radio operators, no matter how much money, technical knowledge or equipment we have. Some of us need to grow up and/or shut up.
Sorry if I offended anyone.
73,
Richard W2FBS
Posted by
W2FBS
on June 13, 2009
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ANOTHER EXCERCISE IN CONTRADICTION!
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KD8FTR said; "The administrating VEs get paid no more than a ham operator working a skywarn, natural disaster, or search and rescue, NOTHING!! Then he contradicts himself and says;"They may ask for reimbursement for out of pocket expense-which may be in the form of a fee added to the regular testing fee set by the ARRL/VEC."
Hams working skywarn, natural disaster or search and rescue are real volunteers who are unpaid and do not receive reimbursement for their expenses. They are donating their time and equipment for the good of the community, which has always been the mission of amateur radio. If you ask for reimbursement, you are not a volunteer!
Then KD8FTR says; "The ARRL testing fee for 2009 is $15.00. The maximum reimbursement the ARRL/VEC allows ARRL "volunteer" examiner (VE teams to retain for test sessions) is up to $7.00 per exam fee collected."
I would like to thank KD8FTR for breaking that down for us, finally! Now you know that almost half of your test fee can go into the VE's pocket. Again, if there are 20 testers and two VEs, they can take in $70.00 each for a test session. Not bad for two hours work!
The more these VEs post the more it confirms what I have been saying all along; we need to go to free online testing to increase the amateur radio community and end the ARRL testing bureaucracy that includes seven full time paid employees. It has turned into a cash cow!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on June 11, 2009
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how about we ALL research before posting.
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De KD8FTR
I see these posts on VE's getting paid, all I can say is "wow". The administering VE's get paid no more than a ham operator working a Skywarn net, natural disaster, or search and rescue, NOTHING!! They may ASK for reimbursement for out of pocket expense, not including time or reasonable travel distance, which MAY be in the form of a fee added to the regular testing fee set by (ex. ARRL/VEC)
from arrl.org/arrlvec/fee.html
BTW feel free to RESEARCH BEFORE B@&%$*!G thx 73
ARRL VEC Test Fees
The ARRL VEC Test Fee for 2009 is $15.00.
Retests of an element failed at the same test session will require payment of an additional test fee.
ARRL VEC Reimbursements.
The maximum reimbursement the ARRL VEC allows ARRL Volunteer Examiner (VE) Teams to retain for test sessions is "up to $7.00" per exam fee collected. Only the amount needed to offset out-of-pocket expenses incurred (or to be incurred) is to be retained. As long as the expense is warranted and has been prudently incurred, and the expense is specifically related to exam administration, then the fee can be retained.
The team should keep a complete record of the expenses paid (with receipts) in team records for two years.
Posted by
KD8FTR
on June 10, 2009
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Master Debater
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SDY,
You won.
All your points are remarkable, profound and correct; the rest of us are morons.
Take some deep breaths and let it go.
Now lower your stress. Be kind to yourself.
Posted by
K5END
on June 1, 2009
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Only using one call
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KI4SDY
OK, not that it is needed, but you asked. When I upgraded my call to NC3C, I did not change the call here on e-ham, as I seldom post here. So, when I first saw the rampant BS going on here, I wanted to post right then. I re-registered here using my new call, but due to my mail system at work, the verify e-mail from e-ham was going to be delayed 24 hours. I elected to go ahead and post under my former call just to get the post on NOW....... and I believe the FCC will forgive me since I was not using any form RF.
Flame away baby, flame away
Posted by
NC3C
on June 1, 2009
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A DROLL TROLL!
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K1CJS, the reason arguing with me is like "wrestling a pig in his own sty" is because you are no good at debating. The first rule of a good debater is to represent the truth (that in and of itself shields your position from attacks). The second rule is to know your subject. The third rule is to get your facts straight. The fourth rule is don't contradict yourself. It is not my fault that you failed on all four counts!
As an example, you first said; "The fees don't go to the VEs at all." After that you said; "You see the few VEs looking for a handout and you assume all of them are like that." I believe the above two statements violate all four of the good debator rules and resulted in your loss of credibility.
In other words, it is easy for me because all I have to do is state the truthful facts and let you fall into your own lie pit. You should have been on the side of truth, justice and the American way. Unfortunately, you chose the wrong side!
Now, about that trolling problem you have. When you criticize and ridicule others in a debate online, but add nothing factual or legitimate to the discussion, that is being a troll. If you would like an example, just read your last post on this thread. I do defend myself and others from these attacks and fight back. That part is a lot of fun, I admit! However, if you want an intelligent high road discussion, stay on the high road!
I, on the other hand, have made ethical and logical points in this debate with the goal of licensing more hams with free online testing. As I have proven, there is no legitimate goal to charging the public testing fees. Some of the old geezer hams have even gone so far as to say a high fee is needed to keep out the riffraff (rift raft-their spelling). So who decides which person or economic level is riffraff and how does that help increase, rather than decrease, ham radio licensees? How is that going to save and perpetuate the hobby?
The bottom line is, you lost the debate because you have no legtitimate point and your position is obviously self-serving!
I did have a slight advantage starting out because I'm smarter, I'm better looking and gosh darn it, people like me!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on June 1, 2009
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Remember the fable of the "tarbaby?"
Posted by
K5END
on June 1, 2009
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KI4SDY--YOU accuse ME of trolling? How droll. Tell you what--you just go ahead and rant and rave. Argueing with you is like wrestling a pig in his own sty--all that happens is the wrestler get dirty--and the pig enjoys it. So go ahead and enjoy it.
Posted by
K1CJS
on June 1, 2009
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HE ONLY HAS ONE TOOTH LEFT!
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If AI2IA breaks his tooth on his own stale comments, he won't have any teeth left. Maybe that is what he meant by the "Mr. Softy" comment. Who knows?
He can still gum an admission that there are free exams, after he said there weren't any. Wrong again or just lying to make a point? Two VECs giving free exams were documented and listed by the poll creator. AI2IA, another master of misinformation!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on June 1, 2009
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WE HEAR FROM THE VE USING TWO CALL SIGNS AGAIN!
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Ok, NC3C or AI4TQ, whichever call sign you are using again this week, what is the story with using two call signs on this thread? We never got an explanation. Again, I don't think someone who violates the rules should be giving exams to new hams or young folks. That is a problem and you should resign as a VE!
As far as the poll results, if you had read the thread you would have seen my previous comment; "Yes, the greedy VEs have rallied to vote themselves a raise (that is the 28%) but the results show 71% want lower or no fees." I would say that is a problem too!
Of course, a person that is part of the problem either can't or does not want to see the problem. Understandable, but not forgivable!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on June 1, 2009
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Stale - very stale.
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It is May 31st. Does anyone at eHam.net know where their survey is? Does anyone at eHam.net care?
It this stale survey is not removed soon, someone might break a tooth on it.
Posted by
AI2IA
on May 31, 2009
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U better pick 15+ $$...!!
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.. or else the voluntear examminer mafia is gonna come after U! They think your cutting into there millions dollar per year prophet.
I tryed to be a VE but aparently I spent two much money at Kinkkos zeroxing the tests.
I woke up one morning. With a yagy that was snaped in half in my bed!!??!!!??!
I din't even make any cash. There not letting the new guys in on a Piece of the Pie until they adminster at leest 20 6 am hamfest sesions!!!!!
U hafta watch out for there bad temper, and dont ask them for any favorr unles you want to be they're slave.
VE = EVil
I just no it.
37,
Dan
Posted by
N3OX
on May 31, 2009
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KI4SDY "I see a problem that can be easily fixed and I am willing to make the effort to see that it is rectified for the good of society and ham radio."
Well, by looking at the results of this survey, I am sorry, I don't see the PROBLEM you speak of.... Clearly 79.3530627 percent of the respondents indicate they are happy with paying for the test. (By the way, how many decimal places is correct for this? I'm sure they taught you that at LLE school.)
Your finding a problem that needs to be "fixed" just reminds me of a politician.
Posted by
NC3C
on May 31, 2009
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FINALLY, HE ADMITS IT!
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K1CJS, you said; "What does it matter to you-you've already got your license."
Why didn't you read all of the thread, rather than just "trolling" by and dropping a comment, uninformed? I guess it is the same reason you made comments about the cost of administrating a testing web site when you know very little about computers and the internet. Free testing online is change and you obviously don't like change, even for the better! Had you read the entire thread before making a comment, you would know that I believe free online testing will result in many more hams. That is the goal! Charging the public for ham exams has no valid goal.
"You see a few bad apple VEs looking for a handout, and you assume they are all like that."
Well, at least your admitting what I am saying is true. That is a start for you! I see a problem that can be easily fixed and I am willing to make the effort to see that it is rectified for the good of society and ham radio. That is an example of responsible leadership! You, on the other hand, admit that a "handout" problem exists and have decided to ignore it. That is an example of the "immaturity" you were talking about.
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 31, 2009
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The same question could be asked of you KI4SDY, what does it matter to you--you've already got your license.
You see the few bad apple VEs looking for a handout, and you assume all of them are like that. How immature, but then what should the rest of us expect? Your comments show not only your immaturity--but your ignorance as well.
Posted by
K1CJS
on May 31, 2009
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Thank you!
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"You are a poster child for public education and would make a good VE!"
Why, thank you!
Posted by
K5END
on May 31, 2009
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GO BACK TO FIRST GRADE!
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K5END, if you learned all of that in the first grade, why did you make those simple grammar mistakes? You must have forgotten more than you learned. You are a poster child for public education and would make a good VE!
You are "naturally rebellious?" I would say you are naturally pointless! You never did respond to my ethical and logical points on this issue, most likely because your position, whatever that is, is wrong, like your grammar!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 31, 2009
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THIS IS 2009, NOT 1909!
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K1CJS, when are you going to advance into the current century? It takes very little effort and very little cost to administer a web site. I have some of my own that I set up at no cost. One person at the FCC could do it. There is no paperwork unless someone wants to print out a record. Think of the employees at the FCC and the ARRL it would eliminate and the tremendous savings! That is what computers are for. Why do you think hams are logging their contacts on home computers now? It is cheap, fast and easy!
"but for their expense in the administration of the exams"
Unfortunately, these "expenses" are so broadly described almost anything qualifies and from the admissions we have seen on this thread, are utilized by those VE's demanding some type of compensation. I would list these comments, but it is Sunday and I have other things to do so please read them for yourself. I do not like the cavalier use of "volunteer" by some of these cheap VEs. It is very misleading!
If you are not receiving any money, what does it matter to you?
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 31, 2009
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Really?
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"These are things I learned in the third grade."
Really?
I learned that stuff in the first grade.
I'm just naturally rebellious.
Have a nice day.
Posted by
K5END
on May 31, 2009
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GET YOUR NOMENCLATURE CORRECT!
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K5END, if your not a VE, then what does it matter to you if they charge for the exam or not? Are you thinking about becoming a VE? Maybe you can see yourself "lording and swaggering" (a VE's words, not mine) over the examinees who had to pay for you to be there. If you are having trouble with the VE application, I would be glad to help. I believe everyone with a "vanity" call sign has what it takes to be a narcissistic VE!
"And I think you mean numeral."
First, it is incorrect to start a sentence with the word "And." Second, "numeral" is used for symbols that represent mumbers, such as roman numerals, not the actual numbers. Third, "License is paper." is not a sentence because it is not a complete thought, like your entire post. What was the point of your post anyway? I notice you avoided the ethical and logical points that I made!
These are things I learned in the third grade. You must have been sleeping in that class!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 31, 2009
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KI4SDY said:
"Fortunately, there are real "volunteers" that participate in giving free exams and as promised, I am going to petition the FCC for free online tests, so we don't have to pay for coffee, doughnuts, gas, geritol or whatever else these old hams want to cash in on."
And I'll ask this--Who do you think is going to administer the on-line exam site? The FCC? Forget it--they want no part of it. The current VECs? Sure--and how are they going to pay for the on-line site, the server space, and the internet connection needed to actually put that site on-line? You actually think all that will be provided for nothing? Dream on.
The fee paid does more than just supporting the employees at the VEC offices. Those fees also pay for the copying and distribution of the exam, the mailing of the official copies of the test to the VEC record center, the storage of those papers for the required time, and so on.
The fees don't go to the VEs at all--not for gas, not for their time, not for coffee and donuts--but for their expense in the administration of the exam. Only that--nothing else. They are required to keep records of expenditures and provide those records to the VEC on request--and the rest of the fee not used for the administration expenditures is sent to the VEC offices. That is the procedure in the ARRL sponsored VEC. And I know that because I'm an ARRL certified volunteer examiner. I would not take anything for my time to help out, so I AM one of those 'real, unpaid' volunteers you spoke of.
Nothing in this world is 'free'--and if you think you are going to get the FCC to provide free, no cost online exams, keep on dreaming.
Posted by
K1CJS
on May 31, 2009
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Who's a VE?
I'm not a VE.
And I think you mean "numeral."
Posted by
K5END
on May 31, 2009
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CORRECT THAT NUMBER PUNCTUATION, VE!
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Amateur radio is a hobby, not a religion. If you have deteriorated to the cult ham mentality, please seek help immediately!
Remember, when you die, your wife will sell me all your equipment for $100 to get it out of the house, so your obsession with ham radio is wasted energy.
People who call themselves "volunteers" and then accept compensation of any kind for their work are engaged in deception and may be violating tax laws. We need good role models in ham radio!
There is no study that shows hams who pay a fee for their license exam stay in hobby any longer, are more skilled in operation of the equipment or have fewer violation notices than hams who paid nothing for the test. The FCC initially charged a fee for CB licenses and still charges for ham licenses. Their are still plenty of rule violators in both groups. Charging a fee does not ensure anything!
Even though you repeatedly went over your post with a fine tooth comb for errors, we know you are an "expert" VE because you incorrectly used a period and half a parentheses for your numbers, instead of just the required period. It looks very strange, because it is very incorrect!
I do not laugh at people in despair, I try to lead them to the light!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 30, 2009
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License
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.
License is paper.
To all the malcontents who lament the ease or (modest) fees of licensing, realize the following.
1.) A license is a privilege and not a badge of competency. A hunting license does not grant me a trophy on the wall, nor does a license to operate a motor vehicle mean that I am a safe driver sharing the road with you.
2.) How good or poor an operator is depends on his behavior and skill when he transmits and copies.
3.) Those who make spelling, conjugation or punctuation errors while attempting to preach correct use of English are making the rest of us laugh.
4.) Sales tax or shipping cost for most rigs exceeds $15. Anyone who thinks $15 is an inappropriate fee to take a licensing exam for one of the most diverse and exciting hobbies in our culture needs to avoid the hobby, get a cardboard sign and spend some time at the nearest four-way stop intersection, and join the others in your economic mindset.
Posted by
K5END
on May 30, 2009
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WRITE THE FCC AND ASK FOR FREE ONLINE TESTING!
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KICJS;"If you don't want to pay, you don't take the test. Simple and effective."
That is the way the ARRL would like it, so they can continue supporting their seven, yes I said seven, full time employees at their VEC. At least now you know where your money is going!
Fortunately, there are real "volunteers" that participate in giving free exams and as promised, I am going to petition the FCC for free online tests, so we don't have to pay for coffee, doughnuts, gas, geritol or whatever else these old hams want to cash in on.
Free online testing will generate more hams and that is supposed to be the primary objective at this stage in history. Think how easy it would be to get the rest of the family involved in this fun and exciting hobby!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 29, 2009
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Here we go again.....
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The fees are set by the VECs and are paid by the people who are being tested. $15 to $20 is VERY reasonable, especially since a person can take all three tests at one sitting.
If you don't want to pay, you don't take the test. Simple, and effective.
Posted by
K1CJS
on May 29, 2009
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The cost of Volunteering
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All ham radio licensees represent Amateur Radio.
A VE is not special nor is an ARES member or a Ham who is not a part of any club.
But if your volunteering to drive somewhere and give a test and score the test, I think the small fees charged are fine. Fifteen ($15) is plenty enough and that will but a cup of coffee a danish and some fuel for your vehicle...
Posted by
KC0YEF
on May 27, 2009
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WOW
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It never ceases to amaze me how ham radio folks love to argue.
Usually they argue about nothing, but add the effect of arguing about money, and it seems like it will never end.
Post after post of pure drivel and folks attacking each other over things that amount to nothing.
Tsk tsk!
Gary
PS: No I did not read each and every post in this looong line of crud. Just enough to see that it truly was a pile of barnyard leavings. Like any smart person would do, I elected not to jump into the pile.
Posted by
WG7X
on May 25, 2009
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THIS VE IS USING TWO CALL SIGNS!
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Ok, NC3C or AI4TQ, whatever call sign your using this week (You are supposed to retire an old call sign if you get a new one. As a VE, you should know that!), maybe you would like to tell us why you are using two call signs? Hiding out? Trying to confuse? Arguing with yourself because you forgot to take your medication? Who knows, but it looks like a violation of the rules to me! Maybe the FCC can solve that mystery for us.
Anyway, I will respond to your confusing and unfocused posts:
"I never said the VEC personnel are volunteers." Your right, and neither did anyone else, so what is the point? I did demonstrate that the ARRL had turned it into a business and I wanted everyone to be aware of that. Did that make you angry for some reason?
"I really don't give a crap what the ARRL figures their fee on." A very sophisticated and metropolitan statement. A perfect example of a person that should not be exposed to new or young hams and the reason we need to take out the human equation and have free testing online!
"You keep saying VEs are getting paid to perform the test sessions...I just tried to get through that thick skull of yours that isn't the case." This guy is as complimentary with people that disagree with him as AI2IA. They must be brothers! Anyway, the VEs are admitting they get compensated for their "expenses" and the definition of that, as you posted, is very liberal and encompasses almost anything or any excuse to get paid. It is human nature, unfortunately, for people to pad or fudge their expense accounts to prevent (in their minds) from losing money or to get paid for their time. If VEs are receiving money for any reason, they are in fact being paid and do not fit the Webster's Dictionary definition of "volunteer," nor mine. So what is your point?
"Memorize the entire Amateur Extra Class exam pool so you can pass." Is that how you did it? Most honest hams admit that is how they passed it, so what is the point? Oh, I get it, it is supposed to be another lame insult, like AI2IA, because you think I disagree with whatever your position is (we are still trying to figure that one out).
"Keep to the issue, quit trying to put words in other's mouths." Indeed! You first! Lead by example, or get out of the way!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 24, 2009
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KI4SDY -
Listen, I never said the VEC personnel are volunteers. And I don't think anyone else on this thread has eluded to that......
And actually, I really don't give a crap what ARRL figures their fee on, or any other VEC for that matter. If you don't want to pay the fee, then go where it's free.
You kept trying to say VEs are getting paid to perform the testing sessions.... I just tried to get it through that thick skull of yours that isn't the case....
Keep to the issue, quit trying to put words in other's mouths (or keystrokes on their computers)and memorize the entire Amateur Extra Class exam pool so you can pass.
73
Harlan
NC3C
Posted by
NC3C
on May 22, 2009
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ANOTHER POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK!
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Let's review AI2IA's posts:
He accuses me of personal attacks, baseless accusations, making unrealistic immature demands and calls me a loon bird. In his previous posts, he calls me and anyone that supports free testing; "chump, sorry bunch, patsy, suckers, not qualified, riff raff, selfish and Mr. Softy (Mr. Softy?). In other words, he can dish it out, but he can't take it. Again, the biggest complainers are usually the worst violators!
In addition to that, he embarasses the VE position with his grammar challenged spelling, such as; "rift raft (riffraff), fule supply (fuel supply) and looney bird (loon bird). He, and W1IT, need to go back to school so they can learn how to spell important words like "amatier radio (amateur radio). Otherwise, as VEs, how do they know what test they are giving? These are the "experts" that are administering the exams? Now you know why we need to take out the human equation in ham testing and just have it online for free!
I would also like to point out that AI2IA stated; "There is no such thing as a free lunch or a free exam (I have had both). We all know that to be a lie! There are free exams. A person that lies just to try to win an argument has no business being exposed to new and or young hams. I am concerned that he does not know he is lying. He should resign as a VE for the sake of the hobby. He admittedly has difficulty with classroom testing anyway.
Lastly, AI2IA states; "time to move on," and I agree. He needs to move on and quit posting his compulsive narcissistic rhetoric on this thread so the issue can be discussed intelligently and factually. Unfortunately, he cannot stop, even if he wanted to!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 22, 2009
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Time to move on.
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It is a mistake to assume that an attention seeker really will weigh information presented for testing fees, especially when such a person attempts to provoke with personal attacks, baseless accusations, and unrealistic and immature demands. There can be no dialogue with an entertainment seeker.
A glance down this thread will satisfy reasonable readers, while the statistics speak for themselves. It is time to move on, and shut off the fule supply to this solitary looney bird.
Posted by
AI2IA
on May 21, 2009
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ARRL VEC CRONYISM EXPOSED!
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AI4TQ, since you are so knowledgeable about the ARRL rules, could you tell us how much money the seven, yes, I said seven, full time employees of the VEC office at the ARRL are being paid (their individual and total salaries please)? That is probably more employees than the FCC has administering the total amateur radio licensing division!
The other VECs, as far as I know, do not have any full or part time employees. So why does this situation exist at the ARRL? Who are these employees related to or friends of? I could guess, could you? Are full time paid employees volunteers, in your definition? Anyone, that receives money for anything, is not a volunteer. That person is a paid employee, or will become one soon due to human nature.
Since I am sure you are in compliance with the ARRL rules, could you please post your teams expenses for the last two years? A summary would be fine!
We need to go to free online testing and get rid of this bureaucratic albatross. The goal is, more hams to feed the hobby, now!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 21, 2009
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When I wrote this survey question; I was careful to select dollar amounts that would have at least one VEC in each category. The actual numbers are:
$15 or more 1 VEC
$12-$14 4 VEC's
$9-$11 2 VEC's
$6-$8 1 VEC
$1-$5 4 VEC's
FREE 2 VEC's
The wide range of fees could have more to do with the efficiency and frugalness of small business vs the inflated administrative costs associated with many corporations.
The amount the largest VEC allows their VE team to retain up to, is more than what half of the 14 VEC's charge for their services.
By the way all the exams given at Dayton this past weekend were free of charge. These new hams had a few extra bucks in their pocket to join a local club or even put towards joining a national organization.
Posted by
AI4ET
on May 21, 2009
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Know your material
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KI4SDY –
You go to lengths to try to try to make a point that VE’s are getting “paid” (handsomely so) and thus NOT volunteers.
I just want to add a few words to this war….
There are two entities being confused here:
VE = Volunteer Examiner
VEC = Volunteer Examiner Coordinator (currently 14 VEC under Part 97)
I am the liaison between our local VE team and our VEC (ARRL). Each VEC establishes the fee to be assigned (as allowed in Part 97).
PART 97_AMATEUR RADIO SERVICE--Table of Contents
Subpart F_Qualifying Examination Systems
Sec. 97.527 Reimbursement for expenses.
VEs and VECs may be reimbursed by examinees for out-of-pocket
expenses incurred in preparing, processing, administering, or
coordinating an examination for an amateur operator license.
ARRL-VEC allows it’s VE teams to retain a small portion of that fee, IF THEY DESIRE, to compensate for costs to the team for the administration of the exams. Not being at the location of my VE team records at this moment, I can’t tell you how many candidates have been tested since I took over the position of liaison, but I can tell you how much money I have retained from the testing fees $0.00.
There are rules that must be followed in order for me to retain ANY portion of the fees, outlined below from the ARRL VE Manual.
Retaining A Portion of the Fees
In setting up and conducting tests sessions, VEs usually have out-of-pocket expenses for such items as phone calls, postage, photocopying, stationery (pens, pencils, erasers, paper, staples/stapler, etc), room/site rental and publicity/advertising. All of these expenses--as long as they were necessary and prudent to the test session--may be directly reimbursed to the VE Team. There can be other expenses that may qualify for reimbursement, such as materials to accommodate handicapped/disabled individuals, travel expenses (e.g. traveling to the residence of a handicapped person) at the actual fuel cost or at a mileage rate determined by ARRL/VEC, and tolls; and basic refreshments for the attendees of the session (not simply refreshments for the VEs only).
The ARRL/VEC recognizes that some may not agree that all of the above are necessary and/or prudent; however, the judgment as to what is (or is not) acceptable is your call to make. When VEs contact the VEC to inquire about what expenses are considered reimbursable, the ARRL/VEC’s opinion will indicate that all of the above items are acceptable.
Retaining the fee and determining how much to withhold, up to a limit announced by the ARRL/VEC, (reimbursement limit is found on the Web at www.arrl.org/arrlvec/fee.html) is decided by the VE Team. To do so, the team must document the expenses incurred in conducting their test session(s). Although no longer required by the FCC, the ARRL/VEC requires that expense and reimbursement records be retained by each VE Team for two (2) years, and must be made available to the ARRL/VEC upon request. So, if you retain a portion of the test fee, documentation of your income and expenses is necessary. Another option is for the team to send all test fees and receipts to the VEC and we will issue the team a reimbursement check. Then the VEC office would be responsible for retaining the receipts.
The VE Team may retain a minimal amount of the test fee above and beyond the session expenses if some more-costly future expenses are expected. Those goals, however, should be well documented in your team files--and once the item(s) have been expended out of the account, the balance should be reduced to the minimal amount necessary to meet the team’s ongoing publicity or session set-up needs.
Leftover funds must always be returned to the VEC if no future goals or ongoing costs exist. If a team needs to disburse a fund that exceeds its needs, any leftover funds must be returned to the ARRL/VEC.
How to Deposit the Money
VE Teams may open their own bank accounts to hold funds for expenses incurred. The account should be free of monthly checking or maintenance charges--the cash flow through the account should be the minimum necessary to meet the team's needs.
If a team chooses, the team funds may be retained in a checking account established for other purposes, as long as all parties involved (and those with account signature privileges) have a clear understanding that the funds earmarked for VEC Test Session activities must remain untouched.
VE Teams may endorse and deposit checks written out to the ARRL/VEC if they wish. When depositing checks, the endorsement should include the city and state of the test site. For example, the endorsement can read: For Deposit Only, ARRL/VEC VE Team, Anytown, Anystate. This way, if a candidate should contact the VEC indicating that the check was deposited, we can determine from the check endorsement where it was deposited--if not done so in Newington, Connecticut.
As a VE I, and fellow team members, are volunteering our time and expenses. I understand the need for “someone” to pay to provide this service. ARRL has set their testing fee in line with their costs to oversee the service. Other VECs set their fees accordingly.
You stated, “When I pass my Extra Class license I will pay back by giving free exams!”. As a General Class, you can become a VE and give all the free Tech Class licenses you want to, as long as your VEC doesn’t require a fee.
Posted by
AI4TQ
on May 21, 2009
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SO NOW YOU WANT US TO PAY FOR YOUR LAPTOP!
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KM5JQ, you purposely ignored the two most important statements of my last post in your lengthy defense of charging fees.
"As far as the VEC setting the fees and charging, that is what needs to be changed. If, in fact, the VE's "accept no pay" then it should not matter to them if a fee is charged."
If you are not receiving any money, then why are you defending this system?
Ok, how about posting a simple accounting for your team's last year reimbursement. We would like to see it."
Where is the accounting I asked for? If you don't have it, I guess you and your VEC are in "violation" of the rules.
If you had read the entire thread, you would have seen that we have VE's reporting that they are participating in free testing sites. If you don't like being bothered collecting the fees, why don't you go find one or start one?
Per your request; "VEC's are hereby notified that we are going to start a letter writing campaign for free on line testing. You will be relieved of your burdensome task soon!"
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 17, 2009
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From April 29 “$270.00 for two hours isn't bad pay! If two of you VE's split it, $135.00 isn't bad either. Of course, as time goes on, you will just want to charge more, just like the government”
WHAT PAY? Our team remits the vast majority of fees collected to the ARRL VEC. There is NO, NO pay going to the VE’s and again it’s the VEC’s that establish the fees.
“I will be sending any prospective hams to the free testing sites”
Please inform us all of these FREE testing sites you refer to since my understanding is that the VEC must assess the same fee for all tests throughout the year.
Verbal acrobatics! Give me a break! May I ask KI4SDY to please provide all test teams FREE wireless laptops since he feels everything should be FREE?
VE’s providing their time for no cost is quite different from being reimbursed for supplies, again perhaps KI4SDY may offer to supply all teams with FREE supplies and postage since he appears to be so benevolent. Oh! I forgot he is of the assumption that we all have access to wireless laptops, of which we will, once he supplies us all with the latest technology.
Concerning free testing sites, just because teams are able to secure free sites doesn’t imply that all teams are able to secure free sites. As stated in my earlier post we offer our venue a portion of the fee in appreciation for providing a consistent site.
Just because it’s stated that team can retain a portion of fees collected does NOT mean that they do or shall retain a portion of the fees but simply that it is allowed.
KI4SDY may also in his benevolence provide all test materials necessary nationwide along with distribution to and from the test teams. Sounds like a plan. Please inform the VEC’s of when and how you’re going to relieve them of these burdens. I’m sure they’d appreciate the savings.
I personally believe that most test teams would love not to have to deal with the financial portion of a test session, I know it’d be easier to just forward the test results and be done with it. Living in the real world I know there are cost involved and no such thing as a FREE lunch. As to how much should be charged I have no idea, as stated earlier the VEC sets the fee we simply collect and forward it to them.
If there is an ax to grind concerning fees perhaps it should be with VEC’s and NOT VE’s we’re simply providing our time and securing a venue to accommodate test sessions and doing the best we can with what we have.
Posted by
KM5JQ
on May 16, 2009
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VE Testing
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The VE's in the Barstow Amateur Radio Club
www.wa6tst.org do test sessions under both the ARRL and GLAARG .
We collect the respective fees and pass all monies to the respective entities .
We do testing at SAR CITY ,one of the best SAR get togethers under the GLAARG and have averaged 15 successful each time .
Remember VE's numbers count , no matter how large or small .
Posted by
KC6IIH
on May 16, 2009
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SHOW US YOUR ACCOUNTING!
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I already did the numbers in my April 29th post, but let's look at the creative logic for charging higher fees or any fees from this last post.
KM5JQ admits there are free testing sites, so there is no cost for that. How much does a pack of pencils cost? I bought some for the free classes I give years ago and take them back up. I still have them! Scrap paper, that is blank on one side, can be obtained from local companies that are going to throw it out. If a student doesn't bring a copy of his license, the information can be obtained on line from a wireless laptop. This is 2009, you know.
KM5JQ says; "we volunteer our time and accept no pay for this," but then contradicts himself and states;"the test team to be reimbursed for associated costs can retain a portion of the fee but must be prepared to account for the funds retained."
Ok, how about posting a simple accounting for your team's last year "reimbursement?" We would all like to see it.
As far as the VEC setting the fees and charging, that is what needs to be changed. If, in fact, these VE's "accept no pay" then it should not matter to them if a fee is charged.
I have never seen such verbal acrobatics to justify charging the public a fee. It sure sounds like the government to me!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 16, 2009
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VE-Fees
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I don’t know where some of you are coming from, thinking that VE’s get paid for conducting test sessions. We volunteer our time and accept NO pay for this, but that doesn’t mean that we also give pencils pens or paper to anyone that just forgets to bring their own. The test fee is established by the VEC, VE’s do NOT set the fee. The majority, if not all, of the fee is forwarded to the VEC upon reporting the test session. The test team to be reimbursed for associated cost can retain a portion of the fee but must be prepared to account for funds retained. Associated cost may be for the venue or materials used for the session. Our team regularly offers our venue a portion of the fee in appreciation for providing a consistent site. We also provide a copy service for those that forget to bring copies of their license or CSCE’s. There are costs associated with providing test materials (printing & distributing), securing a venue (if a free one can not be arranged), along with returning and processing the test results. Of course some seem to think every thing should be FREE, perhaps they think the transportation cost they incur to the test session should somehow be covered by VE’s also.
Posted by
KM5JQ
on May 16, 2009
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THE TAX CHEAT SPEAKS!
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There are three kinds of lies; "lies, damned lies and statistics," Mark Twain's comments from the original statement by Benjamin Disraeli.
Yes, the greedy VE's have rallied to vote themselves a raise (that is the 28%), but the results also show that 71% want lower or no fees. We win! Now we need to petition the FCC to act, and I will!
If you want to foster a feeling of giving back, why would you charge a fee? If you feel like a patsy, why don't you resign as a VE? Because you want the money, that's why!
That reminds me, AI2IA, you never did tell us if you were reporting this part-time employment income to federal and state tax authorities. Are you, and how many years would that go back?
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 16, 2009
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Thus far -
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As of this moment in time for this long running survey we have 887 survey takers who advocate a fee of some amount for the exams (80 percent), while only 227 survey takers (or 20 percent) insist on having folks other than the test takers pay for the exams in terms of dollar costs, time, and effort. You note that I do not use the illusion "free" since nothing is "free."
Many of these minority (20 percent) so-called "free" exam advocates are hung up on the meaning of the word volunteer. They have their own extreme defintion of a "volunteer" who in their minds is some kind of patsy who is willing to be a doormat for the good, the bad, and the indifferent. They thing that having this illusion of "free" and therefore having suckers who are willing to give all at their own expense is good for amateur radio. What does their attitude foster among amateur radio operators? Does it foster a spirit of giving back, or does it foster an attitude of always take and never give?
In any event, the advocates of the illusion of "free" are in the minority and chances are excellent that they will remain so until this long running survey is terminated. Will this be a lesson to any of them? Certainly not.
Posted by
AI2IA
on May 15, 2009
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Free
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If a ARRL group is giving the test, all ARRL members should be free. Place a donation jar out at the test site.
Other groups should have the supplies donated or have a donation jar at the test site.
The tech test should be free all of the time, we need to get new hams in the door....
Lets break it down VEC, V means Volunteer. If you volunteer, that means you will do it for free.......
I have been a VE for many years (10+) at no time we ever charged for a test. One testing at hamfest we had over one hundred people taking exams. Although it has been a few years since I helped, I still thinks it should be free to all. It should not be a money maker for a club.
Posted by
N3LJS
on May 14, 2009
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YOUR CORRECT!
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Yes, that is "grammar," but the "expert" VE wasn't even close on the riffraff (rift raft-his spelling) he was complaining about or the Canadian and British licensing he was trying to use as some type of impending threat. He knows nothing and has no point, he just wants more money!
By the way, "something like that" is not a complete sentence, it is a phrase. The S on "something" should not be capitalized and there should not be a period at the end. I guess you should go back to school too. I bet you are a VE!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 13, 2009
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Re: GO BACK TO SCHOOL!
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> Here is an example of a VE testing
> expert that isn't even functioning with
> a grammer school level of knowledge,
> yet he wants to keep the supposed
> undesirable ham operators out of the
> hobby.
I think you mean "grammar school".
> Boy, is that the pot calling the
> kettle black!
Something like that.
73
Scott
W5ESE
Posted by
W5ESE
on May 13, 2009
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Re: GO BACK TO SCHOOL!
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> Here is an example of a VE testing
> expert that isn't even functioning with
> a grammer school level of knowledge,
> yet he wants to keep the supposed
> undesirable ham operators out of the
> hobby.
I think you mean "grammar school".
> Boy, is that the pot calling the
> kettle black!
Something like that.
73
Scott
W5ESE
Posted by
W5ESE
on May 13, 2009
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Getting Your Facts Straight
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Gary (W1IT) wrote: "The FCC may in fact elect as the Canadians and Brits have to charge you for the license, for each year you hold same.
-----------------
Gary, if you absolutely MUST comment about another country's licensing system for our Service, the very LEAST you could do is to get your facts straight.
The Canadians USED to charge a yearly fee for a STATION license in our Service. The OPERATOR part of that license has ALWAYS been issued at no charge to the applicant. The latter (operator) permit was also issued "for life".
However, ALL yearly renewal fees for Amateur Radio licenses went the way of the dinosaur in Canada in April, 2000 when these two licenses were combined.
Today, Canadian "Certificates of Proficiency in Amateur Radio" (they aren't even called "licenses" north of the border!) are issued both "for free" and are also issued "for life".
Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF
Posted by
KB1SF
on May 11, 2009
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Fees and Testing
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1. Fees: Volunteers volunteer their time. That is enough. They should not have to pay for the opportunity to volunteer. It is reasonable that the applicants should cover out-of-pocket expenses such as paper, postage, etc. $10-$15 is not unreasonable.
2.Requirements/Testing: As to the comments of fairness, discrimination, keeping the "riff-raff" out, etc.; It is certainly fair to have licensing and testing requirements with the goal of having people learn at least the basics. At one time CW was necessary, now it is not. I don't think it was ever an "unfair" requirement, but it now doesn't make sense as a requirement. There are several other modes for which proficiency is not tested; in fact proficiency in any mode is not tested. What should happen is that the license exam should be restructrured to be a more valid test of whether an applicant understands the basics. As it is now, all that is necessary is to be able to memorize Q & A. The other thing is that the "old timers" snould instruct newcommers in proper operating practice and the newcomers should be receptive to and appreciative of such instruction.
Posted by
KC2WI
on May 11, 2009
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Attack the messenger?
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Now quite frankly, since I am not an Extra no code lite, and did pass a cpmprehensive 150 question extra class exam in 1964, ON THE FIRST try, the children are at unrest?
So be it. Amateur radio is nothing but an expanded CB band and yes, economic pressures and an FCC that really couldn't care less, brought same about.
The next shoe to drop? Just allow anybody a license who can breathe.
Oh, we already are just about there anyway.
And as for the ageing in the rank. That is happening everywhere and regardless of the simple and cracker jack tests now give.
The FCC may in fact elect as the Canadians and Brits have to charge you for the license, for each year you hold same.
Probably a 1000 dollar life time license fee, might be tried too. And no senior discounts !
Posted by
W1IT
on May 10, 2009
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"Riff Raff" Indeed!
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Gary (W1IT) wrote: "After all the exams are a sham and no code test. What else is there left to keep rift raft (sic) out? You have to love what amatier (sic) radio has become. A fee of 100 a year, to keep your license, would get rid of all but the serious operators.
---------------------------
Clearly, what's now driving so many of the "Morse Testing and Incentive Licensing forever" crowd up the proverbial "wall" is not so much the FCC's decision to finally drop such things as the Morse testing requirement and to (finally!) start simplifying our licensing structure. Rather, it's the simple fact that these blatantly discriminatory, Government-imposed "filters" they've all been relying on for so many years to keep the "riff raff" out are now, one by one, going by the wayside.
But, unfortunately, these techno-snobs aren't going down without a fight. Such persons remain mad as hell that the US Government is finally…and officially… debunking ALL of the completely bogus "lid filter" arguments that they and their like-thinking buddies have been relying on over the years to continue underwriting their regulated "Good Old Boy's Club".
That is, much to the utter amazement (and oft verbally expressed anger) of this crowd, our federal regulators ARE now (albeit slowly!) taking action to (finally) start undoing the mess their predecessors (and their willing ARRL co-conspirators) created years ago when they turned what once was just a simple, basic competency test for a Ham Radio license into a semi-caste-like system of "rewards" based on an absolutely unneeded series of overly comprehensive "earned" achievement and skill tests.
Thankfully, our regulators of today appear to be well along in their plans to finally dismantle these remaining "hazing rituals" in the licensing system for our Service so as to bring it back in line with the (far less achievement-oriented) ITU guidelines (not to mention the rest of US federal law).
However, progress toward that goal remains agonizingly slow. That's probably because a highly vocal minority of the obsessive proponents of “incentive licensing” who bought into that particularly bogus bill of goods years ago are STILL alive and kicking. And, until very recently, they and their like-thinking buddies have been able to successfully pressure our regulators (and lobby organizations like the ARRL) to indefinitely hang onto their dying dream of regulated "exclusivity".
Now I certainly understand such feelings (even if I don’t agree with them) because, in many cases, “incentive licensing” is the only FCC licensing structure for our Service that many of the "50+ crowd" in the USA (like me) have ever known.
I also know from my own experiences in the helping profession how terribly frightening basic, structural change can be for some people…particularly for those whose only reason for getting up in the morning is a "hobby" like Amateur Radio. To many of these folks, it's "more than just a hobby"…. it's become their avocation…and, in far too many cases…their "religion".
Sadly, and as I have said, even though they are now dying in ever-increasing numbers, our hobby still harbors a highly vocal (and influential) group of crusty curmudgeons who, by their own admission, firmly believe that only people who use Morse, AM and/or SSB (vice IRLP, Winlink and/or Echolink) are "Real Hams".
Geesh! It's no wonder the "kids" are now routinely looking elsewhere for ways to communicate with their peers!
The bottom line here is the requirement to successfully pass such things as a Morse test (and obtaining a so-called "Extra" Class license) for full frequency privileges in our Service SHOULD have been completely removed DECADES ago! The primary reason removing the Morse test now hasn't also caused a large up tick in our ranks is probably because that action has come WAY too late in the game to make any real difference. Our potential "new blood" (along with all their fresh, new ideas) have LONG since "voted with their feet". And they aren't coming back.
As a result, we no longer have the numbers in our ranks (nor can we point to any recently significant contributions to the advancement of communications technology) to continue justifying our free and unfettered access to the literally BILLIONS of dollars worth of federally allocated frequencies we are currently sitting on. The truth is that we haven't "pulled our weight" in that department for decades. This is radio spectrum the well-monied commercial interests would just LOVE to get their grubby hands on…and…unfortunately….soon will.
So, to the "Morse Testing and Incentive Licensing Forever" crowd, I encourage you to now sit back and watch while (y)our hobby continues its long, slow slide into oblivion.
You and your like-thinking buddies have been clamoring for decades to keep everything just as it was when you were first licensed. That's because, in your own narrow little minds, any kind of progress in Amateur Radio…be it regulatory, sociological or technological…poses a dire threat to your systemically discriminatory "Good Old Boy's Club" and is, therefore, to be passionately resisted at all costs.
But, unfortunately, as a DIRECT result of you clowns "ruling the regulatory roost" over these last 50 years, Amateur Radio has become an ever-aging, technological backwater of our (your) own making that is clearly now headed for the dustbin of history.
Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF
Posted by
KB1SF
on May 10, 2009
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"Riff Raff" Indeed!
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Gary (W1IT) wrote: "After all the exams are a sham and no code test. What else is there left to keep rift raft (sic) out? You have to love what amatier (sic) radio has become. A fee of 100 a year, to keep your license, would get rid of all but the serious operators.
---------------------------
Clearly, what's now driving so many of the "Morse Testing and Incentive Licensing forever" crowd up the proverbial "wall" is not so much the FCC's decision to finally drop such things as the Morse testing requirement and to (finally!) start simplifying our licensing structure. Rather, it's the simple fact that these blatantly discriminatory, Government-imposed "filters" they've all been relying on for so many years to keep the "riff raff" out are now, one by one, going by the wayside.
But, unfortunately, these techno-snobs aren't going down without a fight. Such persons remain mad as hell that the US Government is finally…and officially… debunking ALL of the completely bogus "lid filter" arguments that they and their like-thinking buddies have been relying on over the years to continue underwriting their regulated "Good Old Boy's Club".
That is, much to the utter amazement (and oft verbally expressed anger) of this crowd, our federal regulators ARE now (albeit slowly!) taking action to (finally) start undoing the mess their predecessors (and their willing ARRL co-conspirators) created years ago when they turned what once was just a simple, basic competency test for a Ham Radio license into a semi-caste-like system of "rewards" based on an absolutely unneeded series of overly comprehensive "earned" achievement and skill tests.
Thankfully, our regulators of today appear to be well along in their plans to finally dismantle these remaining "hazing rituals" in the licensing system for our Service so as to bring it back in line with the (far less achievement-oriented) ITU guidelines (not to mention the rest of US federal law).
However, progress toward that goal remains agonizingly slow. That's probably because a highly vocal minority of the obsessive proponents of “incentive licensing” who bought into that particularly bogus bill of goods years ago are STILL alive and kicking. And, until very recently, they and their like-thinking buddies have been able to successfully pressure our regulators (and lobby organizations like the ARRL) to indefinitely hang onto their dying dream of regulated "exclusivity".
Now I certainly understand such feelings (even if I don’t agree with them) because, in many cases, “incentive licensing” is the only FCC licensing structure for our Service that many of the "50+ crowd" in the USA (like me) have ever known.
I also know from my own experiences in the helping profession how terribly frightening basic, structural change can be for some people…particularly for those whose only reason for getting up in the morning is a "hobby" like Amateur Radio. To many of these folks, it's "more than just a hobby"…. it's become their avocation…and, in far too many cases…their "religion".
Sadly, and as I have said, even though they are now dying in ever-increasing numbers, our hobby still harbors a highly vocal (and influential) group of crusty curmudgeons who, by their own admission, firmly believe that only people who use Morse, AM and/or SSB (vice IRLP, Winlink and/or Echolink) are "Real Hams".
Geesh! It's no wonder the "kids" are now routinely looking elsewhere for ways to communicate with their peers!
The bottom line here is the requirement to successfully pass such things as a Morse test (and obtaining a so-called "Extra" Class license) for full frequency privileges in our Service SHOULD have been completely removed DECADES ago! The primary reason removing the Morse test now hasn't also caused a large up tick in our ranks is probably because that action has come WAY too late in the game to make any real difference. Our potential "new blood" (along with all their fresh, new ideas) have LONG since "voted with their feet". And they aren't coming back.
As a result, we no longer have the numbers in our ranks (nor can we point to any recently significant contributions to the advancement of communications technology) to continue justifying our free and unfettered access to the literally BILLIONS of dollars worth of federally allocated frequencies we are currently sitting on. The truth is that we haven't "pulled our weight" in that department for decades. This is radio spectrum the well-monied commercial interests would just LOVE to get their grubby hands on…and…unfortunately….soon will.
So, to the "Morse Testing and Incentive Licensing Forever" crowd, I encourage you to now sit back and watch while (y)our hobby continues its long, slow slide into oblivion.
You and your like-thinking buddies have been clamoring for decades to keep everything just as it was when you were first licensed. That's because, in your own narrow little minds, any kind of progress in Amateur Radio…be it regulatory, sociological or technological…poses a dire threat to your systemically discriminatory "Good Old Boy's Club" and is, therefore, to be passionately resisted at all costs.
But, unfortunately, as a DIRECT result of you clowns "ruling the regulatory roost" over these last 50 years, Amateur Radio has become an ever-aging, technological backwater of our (your) own making that is clearly now headed for the dustbin of history.
Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF
Posted by
KB1SF
on May 10, 2009
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GO BACK TO SCHOOL!
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W1IT, that is RIFFRAFF, not "rift raft," and it is one word!
Here is an example of a VE testing expert that isn't even functioning with a grammer school level of knowledge, yet he wants to keep the supposed undesirable ham operators out of the hobby. Boy, is that the pot calling the kettle black!
I can't wait for these grumpy greedy old geezers to die off, so we can move into the 21st century with modern on line testing methods.
Guess what? With on line testing we don't have to drive anywhere or even take the test at a certain time. That is why universities and other government agencies are using it. The problem is with the old hams in the ARRL telling the FCC what they want, not what we want!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 10, 2009
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Raise the fees
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After all the exams are a sham and no code test. What else is there left to keep rift raft out.
Last night heard the Big Ten -Fooor, and first personal boys broadcasting C and W on 7. 230 !
You have to love what amatier radio has become. ( satire now off )
A fee of 100 a year, to keep your license, would get rid of all but the serious operators. Money for education and enforcement.
Posted by
W1IT
on May 10, 2009
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VE - Fees
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If there wasn't so much bureaucracy in the system, I firmly believe the testing could very well be free of charge to the applicant.
Unfortunately, here in the USA, we absolutely INSIST on building a whole series of bureaucratic "safeguards" into the system, all of which simply adds a whole lot of regulatory overkill into everything we do. That eyewash, in turn, does absolutely NOTHING but jack up the costs…for everyone involved.
Besides being an accredited VE here in the USA, I'm also an Accredited Volunteer Examiner in Canada. And to say that the testing system for our Service in Canada is simplicity itself is an understatement.
First of all, Industry Canada requires only ONE Accredited Examiner to be present while giving exams. And that exam session can be conducted anywhere…and at any time. Most of the time, I administer my exams to applicants around my dining room table in my home. At other times, I'll simply bring my testing materials along and give an exam at a quiet place in the back of the room at one of our radio club meetings. I've even administered exams in the back of the room at a local restaurant! (Yes, they all passed!)
What’s more, Industry Canada provides us all with a (free) software program to generate unique exams for each of our sessions. And they simply require us to keep all of our examination materials for three years in case there's a need for an audit.
And, even though Industry Canada gives me the option of actually negotiating a "fee" from my applicants for my services, I've now elected an approach where I simply ask my successful candidates to make a donation to our local radio club in whatever amount they feel comfortable with. That way, there's not even a HINT of impropriety on my part.
In addition, once we’re done with the test, I simply fax their completed application form to Industry Canada in Ottawa. And usually, their new call sign shows up in the Canadian call sign database the very next day.
Now, I well realize Canada is not the United States. But, the truth is that we USED to have a similar system in the USA for our Novice and Conditional Class licenses, where a single examiner administered these tests by mail. And that system worked and worked well for many years. Why do we now require all the "don't-oriented" regulatory overkill and reams of paperwork we now have in our system that simply jacks up the out-of-pocket costs for everyone involved?
The bottom line here is that our Administrators in Canada (correctly) recognize that the integrity of the examination system for our Service rests ENTIRELY on the integrity of the individuals administering it. Industry Canada also understands and accept the fact that absolutely NO amount of "safeguards" (multiple examiners, VEC's, formal exam sessions, etc.) built into the system will completely prevent the occasional occurrence of fraud from happening.
So why do we here in the USA still insist on maintaining all these regulatory "hammers" to squash the "ants"?
73,
Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF
Posted by
KB1SF
on May 10, 2009
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VE Testing Fee
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I am a VE in a small town in south Florida. In no way shape or form do we get compensated for our time, travel, etc. for volunteering to be a volunteer examiner. The monies collected go directly back to the ARRL VEC for expenses THEY incur. Sure, maybe at some point in time our VE laision could have been reimbursed for some items he had to pay for out of pocket, but in the 5 years that I have been a VE I have never heard him say OH, I need to be paid for this, this, & that, that I bought so we could have our exam session. At least here in Vero Beach, Fl. the $15 fee we collect goes directly back to the ARRL VEC.
I don't think that $15 is going to kill anyone. It is a small price to pay to take which ever exam for your class license. Also, In a past life I too was a volunteer firefighter in Pa. it was strictly volunteer. Yes the township, county, & taxes paid for our equipment, we maintained it, but if something major arose we had to raise the money ourselves, especially for roof or structural repairs. If memory serves, we used to have a lot o fund raisers, and we were usually able to fund whatever project came up. We never did get any type of pay for our services, not even a $10 call out payment, no type of retirement either. Having said all this, and getting back to the matter at hand, its not about the money me thinks. It something else to grumble or complain about just thoughts from a volunteer.
73 de Mark
W3LZK
Posted by
W3LZK
on May 9, 2009
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Or Have the Government Do It...
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Anyone dissatisfied with the current VEC system is free to propose a rule change and ask the FCC to take back responsibility for administering the tests and maintaining the question pools.
Forget flexible weekend testing or at special events. The government works Monday thru Friday, except holidays. You'll test on their schedule.
Plan on driving some distances, too. They won't be testing in your neighborhood unless you happen to live in a urban area. You'll travel to their regional office.
The fees will probably go up dramatically, since the feds will have to cover the cost of their full-time personnel on site and in the back office processing the paperwork.
Thanks to all the VE's who have made their time available to help others and their communities.
Posted by
K7LA
on May 9, 2009
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VE - Fees
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There needs to be some kind of a fee to pay for the paper work. Some one down the line has to buy the paper and print out the test papers so someone in the end is paying for all of that. Charge a fee to cover that cost, but dont go crazy with the price of the fee.
Posted by
KD5ITM
on May 9, 2009
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Volunteers is what they are supposed to be. If they charge a fee then they are professional, period.
The fees can amount to a pile of money over time, then you have people that 'hoard' the 'service' to themselves and their friends.
Did not the vanity call program go thru the same thing?
Posted by
KE4VYN
on May 9, 2009
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YOU EARN SELF- RESPECT, YOU CAN'T BUY IT!
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How do you get 259 VE's to respond to a pole? Set one up that supports giving them a raise! I have never seen such stubborn and repeated weak excuses for plain old greed. It must be a record response for a pole.
In my world, you earn self-respect, you don't buy it! Ask Bernie Madoff. People who call themselves volunteers and then charge for their services are lying to themselves and the public. Not a good introduction to ham radio ethics for new technicians.
I don't have any problem with online testing. Many universities and government agencies are doing it. Those of us who have been involved in education know testing is a learning experience in itself. In other words, you continue to learn and reinforce what was learned by taking the test, in addition to study preperation. It would make the hobby more accessible to the public, which would result in more hams. Supposedly, that is our goal.
On line testing would eliminate the VE issue. That is why the greedy Ve's are so against it!
If there are concerns, it could be set up on a trial basis with statistical analysis to see if hams who use this testing method stay in the hobby as long, follow on air regulations as well and get as many, if any, violation notices.
I challenge any of these greedy VE posters to provide us with any statistical analysis that supports their contention that paying for something gives one more self-respect or that the recipient values the service received more.
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 9, 2009
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VE Fees
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I remember having to make an appointment with a FCC office
to take an exam. Any price is better than that.
Posted by
KA2IBN
on May 8, 2009
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People do things that have value!
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If there is no perceived value people will not value the service.
Correspondingly providing value to the service providers hopefully will make them believe that they have customers who they should service. (Or at least put up with!)
Posted by
VE3GYV
on May 6, 2009
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VE, VEC, FCC, examinee
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N9KWW you are not qualified to determine the costs of VE sessions, because you don't know all that is entailed in the process.
I respond to this issue often and tolerate the crude criticisms for the sake of making the facts clear. In your situation, you have assumed costs at the VE session according to your own way of thinking forgetting the costs of advertising the test sessions, but you have also entirely overlooked the costs to the VEC. The VEs furnish material to the VEC and VEC furnishes material to the VEs and also communicates with the FCC. All of this is additional expense, time, and effort. Also, there are more oddball cases that require follow up than you might think - examinees with unusual license condtions and expiration dates, obscure identifications, suspensions, overdue results, missing material, lost correspondence. Not all exam locations are free. In fact nothing is free. The expenses are carried by someone always. A modest fee is essential both for the VEC and VEs, and to preserve the selfrespect of the examinees most of whom, but not all, are decent folk who are not obsessed with trying to get something for nothing.
Posted by
AI2IA
on May 6, 2009
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costs VS testing fees
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VE fees are expected to cover expenses. So the real question is what the expenses are, and what needs to be covered. Let’s look at the list, First you have the copy costs for exams and answer sheets. In addition the forms required, and some misc. pens etc. Then the cost for sending them in and some administration costs.
For the most part those are the fixed costs, while there may be some other unintended costs from time to time; this is the short list of fixed expenses. The testing facility is for the most part free or covered by some other group. The other folks that help are “volunteers” and as such are free. The overhead is very limited but needs to be covered, If you test 40 people a year, and charge them $5.00 each, that comes out to $200.00. That should be more then enough to cover the expenses incurred while testing. How can one justify $15.00 per person? Unless you drive a tank to the testing site, the fuel cost can not be more than a few bucks. At $15.00 per/person at 40/year that comes out to $600.00, Can someone tell me how you can expend that in one year for a “volunteer” event?
I do think they have to charge for testing, the fee has to be justified by the cost to run the test, not a club or anything else.
Ron
N9KWW
Posted by
N9KWW
on May 6, 2009
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Another whiner
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KI4SDY: My VE's were always kind. Sorry someone hacked you off. I understand medication is available. If I send you twnety bucks will you STFU? Have a nice day.
Posted by
K5PHW
on May 5, 2009
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VE testing still cost money to run. It's intended to cover expenses, not get pocketed. While I've never ran a VE session, I've volunteered at some so I don't know all the expenses.
Volunteer orginizations need money to run. Would you really expect just the volunteers in a volunteer fire department to fund all the buildings, equipment and trucks themselves? No.. it's done through fund raising, or in the taxes.
I see no reason it should be free if there's no money coming in to run it's expenses.
Posted by
KB2FCV
on May 5, 2009
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VE testing still cost money to run. It's intended to cover expenses, not get pocketed. While I've never ran a VE session, I've volunteered at some so I don't know all the expenses.
Volunteer orginizations need money to run. Would you really expect just the volunteers in a volunteer fire department to fund all the buildings, equipment and trucks themselves? No.. it's done through fund raising, or in the taxes.
I see no reason it should be free if there's no money coming in to run it's expenses.
Posted by
KB2FCV
on May 5, 2009
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AC7NA DIDN'T READ THE THREAD!
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Obviously, AC7NA didn't read the posts, so he has no idea what was or was not posted. He is just blowing air and appearently is not welcome on the local nets. I wonder why?
I will register as a VEC, but we have them giving free tests here and elsewhere already. If you had read the thread, you would know that, but you didn't. Not too feckless!
The only "nerve" we have here is for an uniformed person to make a comment on something he knows nothing about! Must be a congressman, I guess.
If you don't like the debt, my next question would be, did you vote for Obama?
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 3, 2009
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Last post....this is ridiculous
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I haven't seen a single post from a VE asking to raise fees, so I don't know why you're wasting bandwidth trying to defend against it.
To get emotional over a lousy $15 fee, while our government puts future generations in debt to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars per person seems pretty silly to me.
If you want to volunteer to give free exams, that's great...more power to you, but unless you register under your own VEC, you'll be charging examinees whatever your VEC charges.
FWIW-I don't participate in nets.
Sorry I hit a nerve...it's time to spin the dial on this one folks...goodbye
Posted by
AC7NA
on May 3, 2009
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CLARIFICATION FOR AC7NA!
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I dropped a few letters so let me clarify because you obviously don't understand the debate.
There has never been any statistical analylisis that shows hams charged for their exams stay in the hobby any longer, perform on the air any better or have fewer FCC violation notices than hams that take a free exam.
The only motivation for these VE's to charge more is to make more money. They have turned something into a business that was never intended to be a business. They can resign any time as far as I am concerned.
When I pass my Extra Class license I will pay back by giving free exams!
No, I don't want to listen to you for hours talking about the paint on your house drying, so I probably won't be joining in your favorite net.
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 3, 2009
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YOU CAN'T STAND THE TRUTH!
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Actually, I am posting factual information and demanding the same, while these VE's are demanding more money and not providing proof of what they say.
Has anyone ever done any statistical analysis that shows hams charge for their exam stay in the hobby or have fewer FCC violations than hams that took a free exam? No!
So these assumptions that are being used to justify charging more, by the VE's, is baseless and only designed to line their pockets.
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 3, 2009
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Don't feed the trolls
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Two trolls feeding one another...at least they're posting their drivel here, so it isn't clogging the radio spectrum.
Posted by
AC7NA
on May 3, 2009
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JUST ANOTHER ARGUEMENTIVE NEW YORK YANKEE!
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Yep, AI2IA, your just another flappy-mouthed New York Yankee (now we know the problem) trying to control an opinion poll by continually posting (these two guys are compulsive) his self-centered opinion for personal gain!
So, does that mean your going to send me your financial records showing "you didn't get a penny?" I don't think so, because it is a lie. That's what greed does, induces lying. But then, you probably don't need any encouragement for that, coming from New York.
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 3, 2009
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Finally
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KI4SDY - just another eHam.net attention seeking nut posting extreme nonsense.
So, on eHam.net once again a reasonable survey question is reduced to gibberish.
This site is often a magnet for the bizarre.
- AI2IA
Posted by
AI2IA
on May 3, 2009
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DID YOU REPORT ALL YOUR INCOME!
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AI2IA and W1IT both live in states where they must pay personal income tax as well as federal taxes. In my previous post, I pointed out that some of these VE's are taking in a few thousand dollars a year giving exams. What records are they keeping for accounting and tax purposes? If they are not keeping records, I would not believe a thing they are telling us and neither would the government. If they are keeping records, I would like to see them and ask if they were submitted to the tax agencies. I hope no IRS agents are on this site! They could get access to all their test records from the FCC and they can go back several years to collect. If you charge for a service like it is an occupation, then it has to be taxed like an occupation.
Anyone who proclaims they are "not taking a penny" is always suspect to me. Why would you even say that, unless you were? Sounds like some Congressmen in Washington.
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 3, 2009
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COVER MY EXPENSES!
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If I come across W1IT stranded on the side of the road, I will stop to help and then ask him to "cover my expenses," like my car payment, auto insurance, gas bill and my last oil change. If I have to call someone on my cell phone, he can pay that bill too!
The VE's who voted for $15.00 or more would have greater credibility if they weren't compensated.
Posted by
KI4SDY
on May 3, 2009
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I'll Volunteer when
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Now, this isn't going to happen, but should.
The Exams return to study guides and question pools are NOT pre-published.
Entry level Generals can have a pool of pre-published cheat sheets.
But, the highest license should have NO chear sheet or pre-publisge questions.
You should at least be literate before you can pass an extra.
That would restore integrity to Amateur radio again.
Wit
Posted by
W1IT
on May 3, 2009
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I'll Volunteer when
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Now, this isn't going to happen, but should.
The Exams return to study guides and question pools are NOT pre-published.
Entry level Generals can have a pool of pre-published cheat sheets.
But, the highest license should have NO chear sheet or pre-publisge questions.
You should at least be literate before you can pass an extra.
That would restore integrity to Amateur radio again.
Wit
Posted by
W1IT
on May 3, 2009
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Where is the difference?
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"THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE STILL FREE! I, and a lot of other people, still do volunteer work and not only expect nothing in return, but will not accept anything!" -WA6QJE
"NOTHING IS FREE. GOOD IS ONLY DONE AT THE EXPENSE OF THOSE WHO DO IT. YES, THERE ARE LIMITS ..." as to how much you give when you volunteer. - AI2IA
I think it boils down to the above, but the real sticking point is that Nothing is Free!
This is what many folks refuse to recognize. Somebody has to pay for it, somewhere, somehow. It has nothing to do with VEs. It has to do with someone wanting to get something totally at the expense of others. The rub is the word "totally." Volunteering is noble, but being a chump for the few who demand everything for nothing is only to encourage the worst in people.
From the examinee's viewpoint, encouraging them to always take and never give is bad. They need to pay a modest fee because they need self-respect.
You give people dignity when you charge them a modest fee. I say this sincerely, can you understand that?
Wow! I cannot make it any simpler. Ray Mullin, AI2IA
Posted by
AI2IA
on May 2, 2009
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A raw nerve?
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No sir. You were the one that brought up the comment about the need for recognition. As for my title, I only used that because of your comment about the degenerate clergy. I rarely use a title except in official correspondence. I have no need for titles in my work. People know me by the work I do and the life I lead. I ask for no fame or recognition by any man.
If you have served as a VE, I respect that. I respect all who have served as VEs. And no, I have not served as a VE. However, I was teaching Amateur Radio Theory classes before there was the VE program that we have today. Back when we still went to an FCC office for exams.
And as for soul searching, sir, I do that every day. Do you?
Anyway, this has gone far enough. We have gotten way off topic. May you have a good day, peace and Divine blessings.
Posted by
WA6QJE
on May 2, 2009
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A raw nerve, eh?
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VEs do not need recognition by non-VEs. It is the folks who don't have a clue what is involved in managing exams who need to acquire the proper respect for volunteers, not the VEs who need it. Go bark up another tree.
I don't care where you spent your time. If you have the wrong attitude, then unfortunately for you the core of your head is soft.
As for "Rev.," well, titles do not honor men. Men honor titles. So your pride is picked, eh? Well, do some soul searching.
Look, forget the personal jabs. Tell me that you served as a VE for some exams, and then I will get some insight into your aberrations. I have been there and done that, have you? Don't push your appeals to your authority. Build a foundation for your position, if you think you can. I rest on what I have written, every word of it. My explanations are clear except to those who refuse to see.
Posted by
AI2IA
on May 2, 2009
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["My question is now this: How much time, money and effort must I put into this before you recognize me for "volunteering" to feed this homeless person?"]
Why do you feel the need to be recognized? That sounds rather petty and self centered!
And as for "Mr. Softy"...I don't think so! I spent 36 years in Special Ops and SpecWar units so that people like you would still have freedom of speech! Get Real indeed! There are still people out there that do care! Maybe you should step up and take some responsibility!
And as to the degenerate clergy...Maybe you go to the wrong church, if you go at all! Everyone needs to believe in something!
Rev. Philip E. Evans
Posted by
WA6QJE
on May 2, 2009
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The Ultimate Test
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Now I put to you all the ultimate test.
If amateur radio ever goes down, if America ever goes down, it will be because of the mindset fostered by the media, by academia, by the degenerate clergy, by the soft life summed up in the sick words "I DON'T WANT THAT RESPONSIBILITY."
They want the rewards, they want the recognition, they want free "give-aways," but they don't want the responsibility.
If at the very least you have to trouble yourself to dig into your pocket and put a few of your own bucks on the table, then at least you feel a tiny twinge of responsibility at least for the possible loss of your selfish little investment. It may jog you, but it won't kill you, Mr. Softy. So jerry up, put your money where your mouth is, and take the test like a man without wailing about the fact that it ain't free! This message has been brought to you by a committee of one, and I approve of this message. - Ray Mullin, AI2IA
Posted by
AI2IA
on May 2, 2009
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Yes, let's get it straight.
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In all my comments thus far on this thread I have referred to "MODEST FEES."
Let me try putting it this way: Volunteerism is entirely a matter of degree.
I can give a homeless person three bucks for a bowl of soup. I can also give him the soup. I can give him the bowl. I can feed the soup to him. I can wash the bowl afterwards. I can make the soup for the bowl. I can grow the vegetables and spices for the soup (assuming it is vegetable soup). I can pay the costs for all the materials, the use of the stove, the utility bill for the gas or electric stove, and I can go on and on.
My question is now this: How much time, money and effort must I put into this before you recognize me for "volunteering" to feed this homeless person?
Get real! NOTHING IS FREE. GOOD IS ONLY DONE AT THE EXPENSE OF THOSE WHO DO IT. YES, THERE ARE LIMITS. VOLUNTEERS ARE NOT TO BE DENIED FULL RECOGNITION BECAUSE THEY DON'T PROVIDE EVERYTHING INVOLVED AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE.
So far, few posters if any, have addressed the responsibilities of the examinees. These folks have the responsibility to take seriously the matter of the exam, to behave like ladies and gentlemen out of consideration for their fellow test takers and to avoid interfering with the VEs busy giving, grading, and managing the test, and they are provided with an opportunity to demonstrate that the test means something to them by putting a modest amount of their cash behind their effort to take the test.
If this does not get it straight, then I invite you to become a VE, because wisdom must be tempered with experience. - Ray Mullin, AI2IA
Posted by
AI2IA
on May 2, 2009
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Confusion about fees...
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Let's get it straight... I was not trying to badmouth VEs! I think they do a very good job. What I was trying to say was that THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE STILL FREE! I, and a lot of other people, still do volunteer work and not only expect nothing in return, but will not accept anything! We do it because it because we care, it's good for others and our society, and it's what the word "volunteer" is all about! I have lived and worked in other countries (notably in the Middle East) where nothing gets done without somebody's hand extended expecting something in return. The word they use there is "bakshish". I would hope it never gets that bad here in the US!
I don't know how it is in all areas of the US, but in Los Angeles County, volunteers are not paid or reimbursed for anything. Reserve Deputy Sheriffs are paid a token $1 per year (and it's subject to tax!) Early in the last century in this county people still knew the meaning of charity. Now you need to have a $65 a year permit just to drive through National Forests (that are supposed to be public land and belong to the people)! Ever since the "New Deal" of the 1930's, there seems to be this idea that people have to pay something for everything!
I do not object to paying a reasonable fee to cover administrative costs, but there has to be a limit placed! If there are no limits, eventually (like most other things today in this society), prices will be raised and eventually our hobby will be prohibitive except to the wealthy! In some ways it was still better when we had to go to the local FCC office to take our exams!
Posted by
WA6QJE
on May 2, 2009
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Confusion about fees
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Most of the comments on this thread indicate that the VEC testing fee is somehow directly related with the VEs being paid.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
As a VE I have never been paid and never sought payment or compensation of any kind. Most VEs never are paid or compensated. A few may get small change out of it for transportation, etc.; those VEs are very few.
So, if some object to the testing fee, they ought to find real reasons, if they can, for objecting other than bad mouthing VEs.
As I have said previously, NOTHING IS FREE. What most of these no fee advocates want is for other people to bear the costs of them taking the tests. Yes, there are costs, and those should be paid by the examinees.
Posted by
AI2IA
on May 2, 2009
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RE: Volunteer = no pay
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Well- not exactly. You should not have to come out-of-pocket to pay your own expenses, that would be a losing proposition. Even the "volunteer" firefighters here get $10 pay-per-call and a minimal paid retirement these days. -KR4WM
Posted by
KR4WM
on May 2, 2009
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VE-Fees
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I thought a VE was a volunteer. My understanding of the word volunteer is "no pay"! I volunteer with the Sheriffs Dept. I am also a volunteer hospice worker and a "Bereavement Facilitator". In none of these do I get paid, or even expect anything. If a person gets paid to administer a test, then they are a professional test facilitator or proctor! Just my opinion after having been in ham radio for 49 years!
Posted by
WA6QJE
on May 1, 2009
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Fees and Test Difficulty
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First off, the fees charged by W5YI and ARRL VEC tests are reasonable at $14 and $15 respectively. Practically all of that money goes up the chain to the VEC, as they're the ones that have to deal with all of the processing to get those license upgrades into the FCC's computers. Most sessions rarely see more than ten candidates. It's not exactly a money maker. While some VEs may fluff their expenses, they're still not rolling in the green. At most, they get enough money to cover their gas and maybe a Pepsi.
If you're seriously offended by the "high" fees charged for a test, travel 1000 miles to your nearest free session. I, on the other hand, will gladly spend the $15 at the local session.
Okay, I lied. I'm not spending $15 at the local testing session. I'm testing for Extra at a session 75 miles to the south, as they have a session three weeks before the one near my house. While the test fee there is a mere $14, it costs me at least $10 more on gas.
As for those that always complain about the bar being so low these days, please go take the Extra practice exam on this site and then apologize to everyone you've called "CB rift raft" after you finish crying. Stop complaining and start helping the young ones. Show them that they can build a qrp cw rig for $40, and they'll have two amazing worlds open to them, electronics and cw, for less than the cost of a used HT on eBay.
Posted by
W5UNX
on May 1, 2009
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Home testing
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heck yea! Lets just do away with the license all together! Just include a single paper license in every radio box, just make up a callsign/handle like the FCC did for CB years ago. Since no one has to know anything about radio or even the regulations to get a license now. Its all about how good a person is at memorizing the answers to the questions. No knowledge needed. And while we are at it lets just do away with the radios themselves! heck why spend that money when you have a computer and can use EchoLink or CQ100 or Hamsphere with no radios at all. Cant do IRLP though, it takes radios and someone who knows how to keep them working. And those are going to be short supply. I am sure the FCC can find a use for the radio spectrum we are taking up. And change that name, its now going to be the American Internet Relay League (AIRT)
Posted by
N0FPE
on May 1, 2009
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To KE4MOB
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Yes, it should be possible, but what is the point? You could cheat if done from home and unsupervised.
Not that ANY amateur test is any longer difficult or a test of actual knowledge.
I say this, because the questions exact, and their answers, are all prepublished.
In fact its really NOT a test at all.
Imagine a course where the teacher hands out all the questions and answers, night before.
In 1964- Test was a real test. 150 extra questions where slide rules were needed. In fact at least 10-15 questions were drawing schematics.
Posted by
W1IT
on May 1, 2009
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Today millions of professionals are logging onto the internet to take all sorts of professional certification tests from secured servers. IT people. Health professionals.
Why not ham radio? With the abolition of the Morse test, there is no longer a reason to have the applicant even appear in person.
I can get my drivers license renewed, file my taxes, even fill out FCC applications online...why not take a license test???
Especially for the Tech license, if not all licenses.
Posted by
KE4MOB
on May 1, 2009
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I think we should have web-based testing for pilot's licenses.
You play a video game and if you can take off and land safely twice, you just print the license and you're good to go.
If you can land it on the Hudson River, you get a ticker tape parade and a gold star on the license (have plenty of toner).
Posted by
WB2WIK
on May 1, 2009
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Web based testing, really? Now that is lazy!
As for the price of testing, I could care less one way or the other.
Posted by
KB3LAZ
on May 1, 2009
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Web Based testing?
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KE4MOB-
How can you proctor web-based at-home testing? Unless you're proposing "open book" exams (the ultimate dumbing down for all but the illiterate), I don't see how you could realistically ensure exam integrity.
The best things in life are worth waiting for...Instant gratification becomes endless disappointment before long...
Besides, if you pass an upgrade exam at a VE session, you can use your new privileges immediately w/ your CSCE.
73,
Brian AC7NA
Posted by
AC7NA
on May 1, 2009
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The First VEC in the nation, KL7AA still gives its exams at no charge. With enough genuine volunteers interested in this method of "Elmering", we have been successful in providing twice monthly here in Anchorage, and monthly in many other areas. We are also the first and only VEC to be authorized to develop web based testing and I had the great privilege of being A VE at our first official test of the system (licensed a Tech). Unfortunately, we have had to deviate from our development schedule due to programmer issues.
Posted by
AL7GA
on May 1, 2009
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It should be free, and internet based. VEC's are obsolete.
There is no excuse, given the computing technology today, that the testing isn't taken back in house and made available at www.FCC.gov. We could have INSTANT pass/fail and printing of licensure documents ON THE SPOT, BY THE USER.
But the ARRL won't push for it, nor will W5YI.
Posted by
KE4MOB
on May 1, 2009
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what Brian said
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Yeah, exactly what Brian said.
Posted by
TIMEWILLTELL
on May 1, 2009
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Unbelievable...
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I don't object to a $15 fee...and it amazes me when I see Hams who don't think twice about spending thousands of dollars on the newest flavor-o-the-week rig or their antenna farm, but love to bitch about a $15 exam fee or the rising costs of QSLing.
That being said, I do a fair amount of volunteer work myself without compensation for my expenses (and many would consider my expenses substantial). My opinion mirrors what another poster said about true volunteerism involving the volunteer's time, effort, and money...but that's just me, and I don't begrudge any volunteer who is reimbursed for their actual incurred expenses (I've witnessed inflated expense reports in the past, which is another reason I don't participate in expense reporting).
I also feel that many hams have forgotten that their license is a privilege, and not a constitutional right. Privileges should be earned and a ten-year operating license that costs less than the average annual renewal for vehicle privileges is one heck of a bargain IMHO.
I think the VEs do a fine job and they do put up with a fair amount of bitching, moaning, and yes...cheating. Obviously, none of them are getting rich from their service, which is a good thing. Excessive fees and reimbursement would encourage corruption, which is thankfully a rare occurrence during VE sessions. Rather than complaining about paying to earn a privilege, why not thank them for the opportunity?
The alternative is the oft-repeated "500 miles each way in a blizzard to the nearest FCC office."
73,
Brian AC7NA
Posted by
AC7NA
on May 1, 2009
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Bargain at any price
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You pay the fee, take the test, and if you pass it's good for ten years and renewal is free. $10-15 bucks sounds cheap compared to about a million other things. I think I paid 12 bucks when I took my extra. My General & Advanced were so long ago (at FCC) I don't remember but I think they cost something.
Posted by
WA5VQM
on May 1, 2009
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refresh
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You know that does that when you refresh your screen.......odd.
Posted by
TIMEWILLTELL
on May 1, 2009
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Go back
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Yeah, Lets go back to sending code with spark gap, because they did it back then. That is great advancement, lets go everything the way they did back then to make the old hams feel better about themselves and maintain their superiority.
Posted by
TIMEWILLTELL
on May 1, 2009
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Go back
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Yeah, Lets go back to sending code with spark gap, because they did it back then. That is great advancement, lets go everything the way they did back then to make the old hams feel better about themselves and maintain their superiority.
Posted by
TIMEWILLTELL
on May 1, 2009
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Go back
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Yeah, Lets go back to sending code with spark gap, because they did it back then. That is great advancement, lets go everything the way they did back then to make the old hams feel better about themselves and maintain their superiority.
Posted by
TIMEWILLTELL
on May 1, 2009
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VE - Fees
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To get my various licenses I had to: travel 100 miles each way to take the General exam; travel 160 miles each way to take the Advanced; and travel 225 miles each way to take the Amateur Extra.
$15 for a VE exam? What a deal!
Posted by
K8WV
on April 30, 2009
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VE ELIMINATION
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Do away with all VE examiners, and make all license applicants go to the nearest Federal building to take the exams like we did years ago. If that happens, then guess what! Let the crying begin...Then VE's will be appreciated.
Posted by
KU2US
on April 30, 2009
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==Cheap Hams
Perhaps the sad part is that this is almost believable..
Also note WW3QB's comment.
--
KG6WLS said: "Do you know how hard drawn Copper wire was invented? By two hams struggling over a penny at at VE exam!"
Posted by N4CQR on April 30, 2009==
**Nope, K4JSR said that. I only posted that it was funny.**
Posted by
KG6WLS
on April 30, 2009
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Anybody ever take SAT
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Now, talk about excess profits. As many as 200 or more students may take an SAT. The whole exam is graded by a optical computer and the cost? Isn't it over 50 dollars.
My goodness, lets do the math, 50 x 200 = $10,000 per session. Hummmm???
Posted by
W1IT
on April 30, 2009
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VE Fees, etc.
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VE fees should be FREE ! While we're at it, postage for Amateur Radio operators should be "franked" and we should get federal funding for equipment. DXers should get more funding since they are involved in "foreign relations". Oh, and all those HOA Nazi's who seek to ban Amateur antennas should be sent to Guantanamo.
Posted by
N9AVY
on April 30, 2009
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Cheap Hams
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Perhaps the sad part is that this is almost believable..
Also note WW3QB's comment.
--
KG6WLS said: "Do you know how hard drawn Copper wire was invented? By two hams struggling over a penny at at VE exam!"
Posted by
N4CQR
on April 30, 2009
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MATH TIME!
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Ok, AI2IA, lets do some math. Most testing sessions I have been to have about 20 people testing. At $15.00 each that is $300.00. Any local EMS, church or ham radio store will let you use the facility for free, so I doubt your paying any rent. Your very small expenses are paid with the first testor or two. $270.00 for two hours isn't bad pay! If two of you VE's split it, $135.00 isn't bad either. Of course, as time goes on, you will just want to charge more, just like the government.
So my question is, are you and your greedy VE buddies reporting these casual financial dealings to the IRS? You are supposed to report all income! If not, I suppose that would be using ham radio for a crime and you would lose your ham license, not to mention the IRS penalties.
Ham radio is an avocation, not a vocation. We need true volunteers with good attitudes giving these exams. I will be sending any prospective hams to the free testing sites!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on April 29, 2009
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Mindless Babble
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KI4SDY has been babbling on and on here about "cheap" VEs and "control" obsessed VEs, but the truth is simply that his statements are more of a comment about himself than about VEs.
In regard to testing fees, I, like most VEs have never taken a single penny in compensation from fees collected or any other source. In regard to control, it is the VEs duties to provide a quiet, courteous, orderly, and honest atmosphere for the examinees so that they can do the best they can on their exams. Anyone who has problems with that belongs in anger management classes.
Most hams understand that modest fees are needed to take care of overhead expenses and to provide the examinees with an opportunity to show commitment to take the matter seriously. There would be no motivation to study and prepare beforehand for the exams if you could just take the tests over and over again without any charge whatsoever and expect others to provide the complete testing environment, grade the results, and submit all the paperwork on your behalf as often as you care to walk in and take a test.
So, enough of giving this guy more attention than he deserves. There is no reason for an audience for his drivel.
Posted by
AI2IA
on April 29, 2009
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Old FCC Fee
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I paid $9.00 for each test at the FCC office in 1974 (General and then Advanced). According the inflation calculator, that's $38.87 in today's dollars.
Posted by
WW3QB
on April 29, 2009
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NOW WE KNOW!
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W1IT said; "If by control, you mean making sure you can't cheat and are not allowed to grade your own exam, I guess that's control."
Is that how you got your license? Now we know!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on April 29, 2009
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"Do you know how hard drawn Copper wire was invented? By two hams struggling over a penny at at VE exam!"
Now, that's funny! I won't go as far as saying "that's true", but that's funny. :)
Posted by
KG6WLS
on April 29, 2009
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Bah! Humbug!!
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There are a few hams out there who are so cheap that if the VEs paid the wannabes to take the test, the cheapies would complain of low pay.
Jack Benny was never as cheap as radio hams.
Do you know how hard drawn Copper wire was invented? By two hams struggling over a penny at at VE exam!
WAKE UP!! Ham exam fees are not on Obama's Stimulus List! Unfortunately, neither is my new motor home with complete DC to Gamma Rays contest grade ham station. :-(
May all of you have a nice day, whether you
want it or not!
73, Cal K4JSR
Posted by
K4JSR
on April 29, 2009
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Didn't pay for my testing @ the FCC. No one else should have to. This is AMATEUR radio ...
Posted by
K3SUI
on April 29, 2009
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"$33,000 per question
This is a really boring survey question.
Posted by N3OX on April 28, 2009"
Yup!! The usual “this, that, and the other” comments that hardly pertain to the original question.
Posted by
KG6WLS
on April 29, 2009
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To KI4SDY
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If by control, you mean making sure you can't cheat and are not allowed to grade your own exam, I guess that's control.
Posted by
W1IT
on April 29, 2009
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MORE TRUTH!
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Ooops, I left out the word "control" in my first listed statement.
I said; "You will not see these expense complainers resign beacuse they would be giving up the feeling of control and superiority they have over others while they are conducting exams."
AI2IA needs all the "control" he can get!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on April 29, 2009
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THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER COMES OUT!
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Lets review shall we?:
I said; "You will not see these expense complainers resign because they would be giving up the feeling of superiority they have over others while they are conducting exams."
I said; "Could it be that some problem examiners are creating issues with a bad control freak attitude?"
AI2IA said; "To attribute a control freak attitude to VEs is a low smear."
AI2IA said; "Fortunately the FCC and the VECs are in control."
Finally, AI2IA shows his true spots; that of a control freak who wants to lord and swagger over the test takers, while he takes their money for his part time job.
We must stop this negative attitude first exposure for new hams by sending recruits to the free testing sites and put these greedy old grumps out of business!
Again, the votes for a $15.00 or higher fee are all from VEs trying to vote themselves a raise!
Posted by
KI4SDY
on April 29, 2009
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YOU FIRST!
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Ok WMCO, so you get a traffic ticket, which is a crime in some states and the government takes your ham license that you paid the initial fee for and $15.00 per month. Sounds good to me! No one will miss you.
Can I have your ham gear, or do I have to wait until you keel over and your wife sells me everything for $100?
Posted by
KI4SDY
on April 29, 2009
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WMCO
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You mention a yearly fee for an amateur license and I whole heardedly agree this would be a great idea. The ARRL I believe charges about 40 dollars a year for Leagur membership.
I also admit, I agree, it would clean up our bands of the CB rift raft allowed in my relaxing examination standards. As well, only serious amateurs would pony up that members license fee every year.
The proceeds could go to exams, enforcement and so on. We all know FCC does NOT consider amateur radio a priority anymore and probably never will again.
Posted by
W1IT
on April 29, 2009
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The best really would be to pay a fee for our license..something like $15 a month and a $15 fee to administer the test.
This would work wonders to show the real numbers of active hams..of course, it would blow away all the propaganda numbers we hear for certain institutions for the sakes of making ham radio operator numbers seem larger for pure political reasons. It would also be a far better "character filter" then CW ever thought of being, only operators that really want to be hams will pay, the rest will go back to CB. In addition make rules that prohibit anyone with a criminal conviction of ANY kind to get a license.
J.C.
Posted by
WMCO
on April 29, 2009
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$33,000 per question
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This is a really boring survey question.
Posted by
N3OX
on April 28, 2009
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VE-fees...
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I volunteered as a VE for several years in WV. Drove 50 miles each way to the test site each month for the testing session. Never got compensated. Never expected to be compensated. It was my way of giving back to the hobby. The fees collected at that time were $12 per test session per person. The money was used to pay for the postage for sending the documents and paperwork back to the VECs for processing. Never joined the VE ranks to make any money, only to help promote and continue on the hobby.
Posted by
WE4VB
on April 28, 2009
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Fortunately
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Fortunately the FCC and the VECs are in control. The long number of years of successful VEC operation is a reliable testimony to the correctness of the standing procedures for amateur radio testing. Modest fees are part of this procedure. The ignorant will never know the whole picture in part because they do not sit at the opposite side of the testing table, but mainly because they refuse to respect the system.
Foolish folk refuse to understand that there is no such thing as "free," and that nothing in this world was ever improved by making it free for one set of persons at the expense of another set of persons.
So, on eHam.net you can see your anonymous posters pretending to be bold and writing their "power" words to awe the readers of the thread (or so they think), but alas for them, they are on the sidelines. The FCC, the VECs, and the decent VE volunteers continue in the fine work they have been doing for years.
Posted by
AI2IA
on April 28, 2009
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VE's & Fee's
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I am a VE and do not handle the $$ part. I help with the instructions and testing. I also help with the instructional classes when I can and help with school kids who want to earn their license. I could care less about how much to charge and actually I have the time to volunteer to help out so really we should not be charging much at all. There are plenty of volunteer HAM's who could help teach, test, and make up the paperwork so charging really is not neccessary. Increase the number of Ham operators and we will increase the enjoyment of the hobby itself! Fred -W2LGA
Posted by
W2LGA
on April 28, 2009
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Gary
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GARY E DAVIS
215 Applebark Lane
Inman, SC 29349
USA
See how easy that is Gary, now do you really want some of the nuts on this site to know exactly where you live?
Posted by
TIMEWILLTELL
on April 28, 2009
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Gary
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GARY E DAVIS
215 Applebark Lane
Inman, SC 29349
USA
See how easy that is Gary, now do you really want some of the nuts on this site to know exactly where you live?
Posted by
TIMEWILLTELL
on April 28, 2009
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Gary
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GARY E DAVIS
215 Applebark Lane
Inman, SC 29349
USA
See how easy that is Gary, now do you really want some of the nuts on this site to know exactly where you live?
Posted by
TIMEWILLTELL
on April 28, 2009
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Gary
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GARY E DAVIS
215 Applebark Lane
Inman, SC 29349
USA
See how easy that is Gary, now do you really want some of the nuts on this site to know exactly where you live?
Posted by
TIMEWILLTELL
on April 28, 2009
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Gary
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GARY E DAVIS
215 Applebark Lane
Inman, SC 29349
USA
See how easy that is Gary, now do you really want some of the nuts on this site to know exactly where you live?
Posted by
TIMEWILLTELL
on April 28, 2009
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Gary
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GARY E DAVIS
215 Applebark Lane
Inman, SC 29349
USA
See how easy that is Gary, now do you really want some of the nuts on this site to know exactly where you live?
Posted by
TIMEWILLTELL
on April 28, 2009
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Troll
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I quit posting my profile on here years ago because of some of the nuts. And you can troll my foot up your arse.
Posted by
TIMEWILLTELL
on April 28, 2009
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Bogus poster
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Check out timewilltell..
What a troll. No amateur call and a profile indicating he is 109 years old.
Go away troll.
Posted by
W1IT
on April 28, 2009
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again
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I would bet you people think your poop smell better than others. Let me tell you a little story. I lived near a licensed extra who pissed and moaned about code, no code, bla, bla, bla, piss and moan. I went to his house one day and had him bring up the practice test for tech..........he failed, not by alittle but alot, not once but four times in a row. An he was an extra........what is wrong with you people, I have been alive 50 years and never seen a more judgemental group of jackasses.
Posted by
TIMEWILLTELL
on April 28, 2009
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pay for test
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How about this, people have to take the test again every five years. I am so sick of hearing this bitchie winny butt plugs wanting to keep people out of the hobby unless they are this and that. Unless they want to put down fifty dollars for the test. You people make me sick to my stomach, what a bunch of jackasses.
Posted by
TIMEWILLTELL
on April 28, 2009
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It would appear that many want the licence testing for free.
They want it just like the effort they have to put into the hobby~None~
Posted by
W7WV
on April 28, 2009
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THE 28% THAT VOTED FOR HIGHER FEES ARE VE's!
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Yes, you can rest assured from the angry VE posts we have seen on this topic that the 28% who voted for fees of $15.00 or more are all VE's! This is like Congress voting themselves a raise. They act like they are doing us favors too! Go figure!
IF AI2IA and W1IT are unhappy with their VE compensation, they should resign their part time jobs and let real caring volunteers take over. That would save them from the insurmountable problems and extreme dangers of ham examinations. I guess they are just not equipped to handle classroom situations effectively. It must be very frustrating for them.
I do think those two would make great grocery baggers, though. They could make more money and get paid for exercising. Of course, that would be real work, so most likely they are not interested.
The next time I am "blustering" on the air in my "shacky" (what else would a real ham be doing, thinking of ways to make money off other hams?) I will give you boys a call. What is your vanity call now; Dialing for Dollars or is it Swagger and Lord?
Posted by
KI4SDY
on April 28, 2009
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Rolling In Dough!
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If I take ALL the cash I have received for being a VE and pooled it, well, I would not have anything. I have driven my vehicle up to a 120 mile round trip, to participate in a test session, without any compensation.
Our VEC uses the "cash" to pay for postage, supplies, etc. - not for trips to Cancun (well that would be a bad idea right now).
As far as "lording" it over the examinees, we conduct our testing on a strict protocol. No one has EVER questioned the results of a testing session our group has run!
Posted by
KG4RUL
on April 28, 2009
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Dumber still
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I have seen this subject get a good work out. Unfortunately people are not equal in their intelligence, educations or knowledge base. To assume because someone is a VEC and an extra, he/she is LORDING over you, shows how little you know and how shacky you are in what you do.
Posted by
W1IT
on April 28, 2009
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There are no free exams.
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KI4SDY blusters:"We have posters that are reporting there are such things as free exams!"
Exams may be offered free of charge to examinees, but the cost of material, the time,and effort, in short, the overhead, in such cases is paid for by the VEs or their sponsoring organizations. The examinees may not have to pay, but certainly someone pays for their exam!
Again,KI4SDY: "As far as the problems and responsibilities you mentioned; I have never seen anything like that at an exam."
As a VE I and unfortunately many other VEs have on occasion experienced examinees with bad attitudes, noisey test takers, and aggressive folks who failed at their test session. Also most unfortunately, attempts at cheating have and do occur. These are particularly risky for VEs who maintain integrity.
Neither I nor most VEs advocate that we be "paid." We are happy to volunteer our services. However the "overhead" costs must be paid, and it is a good and wholesome thing to have these modest costs paid by the examinees. Who else should pay for their privileges?
To attribute a "control freak" attitude to VEs is a very low smear. Volunteers offer their services, in most cases also the costs of their own time and effort such as their own transportation, meals, etc. They do not pay the overhead so that people off the street can walk in and take all that is offered for granted, act abusively when they fail an exam, disturb other test takers with loud conversation, or attemp to cheat on exams.
The volunteer VEC system with modest fees has benefited the amateur radio service well for a number of years and will continue to do so.
Posted by
AI2IA
on April 28, 2009
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VE-FEES...
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"paying someone for service will make them value their job more, and keep them honest."
I disagree. This is a fellowship of different peoples, cultures, as well as, genders. This is a hobby, not a buiness. You can charge to cover the cost of envelopes, stamps, printed exams, and FCC forms, but never charge a fee to pay a VEC. If there are hams out there trying to subsidize their income by becoming a VECs, they should consider filling out an application at their local grocery store and becoming grocery baggers.
This is Amateur Radio, not AT&T!
Posted by
KG4CLD
on April 27, 2009
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VE-Fees
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I am proud to be one of a growing number of FREE Laurel Volunteer Examiners. You can come to Clearwater, FL any second Monday of the month and your Amateur Radio exam is on us! It is part of the Clearwater Amateur Radio Society's commitment of service to our community. It is a commitment that many who test out at our sessions embrace and adopt as their own....Leadership by Example.
73 de Paul-NA4AR
President
Clearwater Amateur Radio Society, Inc.
Posted by
NA4AR
on April 27, 2009
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THERE ARE FREE EXAMS, HOORAY!
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Ok AI2IA, how many resignations do we have? None? Point made and very proven!
We have posters that are reporting there are such things as free exams! I know they have been given in my area. Maybe we should have the hams giving free exams compete with those that charge in each community? I bet I know who would examine the most ham candidates!
As far as the problems and responsibilities you mentioned; I have never seen anything like that at an exam. It is imagination and created issues like these that remind me of government employees. Those serious and efficient government employees think up thousands of reasons why they should be paid for sitting there warming a chair and then receiving a retirement!
Could it be that some problem examiners are creating issues with a bad control freak attitude? Maybe they are confused about their responsibilities? Maybe they just don't have any social or leadership skills?
Again, the pinnacle of cheapness is to volunteer to do something and then ask to be paid for minor expenses!
True volunteerism costs the volunteer in time, effort and money, not the recipient of the service. The reward is gratification from helping others without asking anything in return. Maybe that is an exam many on this page need to pass?
Posted by
KI4SDY
on April 27, 2009
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VE Fees
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Geez,
I read some of thee haughty comments and wonder why I became a licensed amateur. Some of you people have a pretty high opinion of yourselves.
Perhaps that's why I waited 14 years before taking my test. Why? Because of the "You'll never know as much as I do" mentality that is unfortunately so prevalent on the bands today.
This hobby needs new members and genuine Elmers- not condescending attitudes.
And no, NY7Q, you're dead wrong in your assumption: that the Clearwater Chapter of the Laurel VE group is most sincerely appreciated and respected by me to this day.
Posted by
KI4NEJ
on April 27, 2009
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VE Fees
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Geez,
I read some of thee haughty comments and wonder why I became a licensed amateur. Some of you people have a pretty high opinion of yourselves.
Perhaps that's why I waited 14 years before taking my test. Why? Because of the "You'll never know as much as I do" mentality that is unfortunately so prevalent on the bands today.
This hobby needs new members and genuine Elmers- not condescending attitudes.
And no, NY7Q, you're dead wrong in your assumption: that the Clearwater Chapter of the Laurel VE group is most sincerely appreciated and respected by me to this day.
Posted by
KI4NEJ
on April 27, 2009
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VE Fees
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Geez,
I read some of thee haughty comments and wonder why I became a licensed amateur. Some of you people have a pretty high opinion of yourselves.
Perhaps that's why I waited 14 years before taking my test. Why? Because of the "You'll never know as much as I do" mentality that is unfortunately so prevalent on the bands today.
This hobby needs new members and genuine Elmers- not condescending attitudes.
And no, NY7Q, you're dead wrong in your assumption: that the Clearwater Chapter of the Laurel VE group is most sincerely appreciated and respected by me to this day.
Posted by
KI4NEJ
on April 27, 2009
|
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Disappointing Drivel
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What is wrong with most of you? Petty envy of those with money, illusions that VEs love to swagger about and lord it over test takers, exploiting the topic for the same stupid agendas like the dumbing down nonsense, the Morse Code necessity nonsense, wanting something for nothing, - what a sorry bunch to call themselves amateur radio operators!
Unfortunately, not enough VEs have taken up the gauntlet here and put some reality into this drivel.
How in the world do you ever expect to become top level hams if this the best you level of thought you can produce?
Posted by
AI2IA
on April 27, 2009
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VE-Fees
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$15 is fair, and if there's anything left over I want a cut. Seriously, VE stands for Volunteer Examiner, would that lead someone to believe they were going to get paid? A Professional Examiner may expect to get paid but not a Volunteer. I also believe the tests given now are not any worse (or better) than the ones given fifty years ago. If the test someone took in 1965 was harder does that really mean the tests given now are bad? Oh yea, code-no-code, I remember. FYI - I was licensed in 1994 as a Novice and I know code.
Posted by
N7KFD
on April 27, 2009
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VE FEES
|
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I've heard quite a few hams who appeared to have plenty of money by their equipment that were still doofuses. Some of the biggist idiots I have ever met had money. A small fee would not be unreasonable but if you charge too much for testing folks simply won't go to the trouble and expense of testing,thereby ensuring the decline of amateur radio. They'll instead operate on the 11m band, illegally and for free. Ham radio should not be the exclusive playground of the moneyed.
Posted by
NC4TB
on April 27, 2009
|
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VE Testing -Goals
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One needs to first define what are the goals of the VE testing program.
My understanding is that the VE testing program is designed to increase the number of Hams.
The FCC/ARRL designed multiple-guess format, with a public question pool, declares that knowledge is secondary to memorization.
Increased numbers & minimal emphasis on competence means that FREE is the only answer.
The Laurel VEC has testing sites around the country, they are FREE and they have excellent results - the Clearwater, FL group is one example of integrity and sacrifice for the growth of our hobby.
If we don't grow & get more active this spending-crazed Congress & President will take our spectrum and sell it - so we need FREE and we need MANY!! Like it or not that is the way it must be ... 73, KD4E
Posted by
KD4E
on April 27, 2009
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VE-fees
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I personally think the testing should be free and donations can be givin at the test site. IF the person testing would like to do so. After all this is our hobby and we can spare a few bucks to enlist new hams.
Posted by
AI4JD
on April 27, 2009
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Code v. no-code
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There, I did it.
;-)
Posted by
WB2WIK
on April 27, 2009
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VE Fees
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Wow, it don't take much to start the code / no code thing up AGAIN. I think that VEs do a great job, nothing is free, not if it is worth anything, we need to get over the free ride mentality. and get off the code war that rears it's ugly head at the drop of a hat. 73 all.
Posted by
KC8PCL
on April 27, 2009
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Pure Ignorance
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KI4SDY writes: "You will not see these expense complainers resign, because they would be giving up the feeling of control and superiority they have over others while they are conducting the exams.
It is their short, fleeting opportunity to feel important in life."
Every VE puts his own license on the line when he participates in an exam session. If some collusion occurs between other examiners and some test takers the result can be devastating. Some come to the exams with a bad attitude and get aggressive against the examiners. There is a lot of responsibility here both in the honest conduct of the exams and in being courteous yet inflexible when it comes to enforcing the rules. VEs give a lot and they have to take a lot of bad behavior from examinees also. Modest fees are essential. There is no such thing as a free lunch or a free exam.
Posted by
AI2IA
on April 27, 2009
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VE Fees
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If the FCC and ARRL are going to continue to dumb down the hobby at least make it more expensive.
Posted by
WW3JR
on April 27, 2009
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Note for VK5LA
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I have no opinion, or am unable to come up with one on this particular issue. Your choices probably should have included a "no opinion" .
Ed K7AAT - did not vote
Posted by
K7AAT
on April 27, 2009
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Real Hams Volunteer!
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Amateur radio was built upon volunteerism, but unfortunately has become increasingly commercial. The annual fee for the ARRL is a good example of that. Basically, you are buying a ham radio magazine subscription and a supporting a network that encourages charging folks for entering a hobby.
If you cannot cover the small expenses to be a VE, you shouldn't be. There are plenty of folks who can and will. You will not see these expense complainers resign, because they would be giving up the feeling of control and superiority they have over others while they are conducting the exams.
It is their short, fleeting opportunity to feel important in life.
For those that are calling folks "cheap asses" and stating that a wallet check will weed out "wannabees;" I would say that if you want to join a country club with high fees to be with your own kind, please do. I really can't think of anything cheaper than volunteering to do something for the good of the community and then asking for small expense reimbursement. Do us all a favor and stay home!
Let's keep ham radio a hobby that anyone can enjoy, young and old, no matter how fat or full their wallet is. This is supposed to be one pursuit where greedy people aren't trying to take money from you every time you turn around.
Hams volunteer and don't ask for any money in return. A sincere "thank you" should be enough. Are you a ham or are you looking for a part time job?
Posted by
KI4SDY
on April 27, 2009
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Fees
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How about letting the VE team charge "actual expenses" associated with a given test? Only one person testing? He has to foot the bill, however much it is. That would encourage potential candidates to get friends involved to keep the overall costs down. It would provide incentive to get more people to test. Everybody seems to think we need to grow our ranks, this is one way to do it! -KR4WM
Posted by
KR4WM
on April 27, 2009
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fee
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I think the price of the test should be higher so we could weed out the wannabees. Kinda like the code used to do!
LOL! Hows that now the no code/code thing can start now!
Posted by
N0FPE
on April 27, 2009
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The Inevitable
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Gee, almost an entire page of responses. Isn't it about time for someone to tie the code/nocode issue into this somehow?
Posted by
WB1HJS
on April 27, 2009
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For all those that answered Free!
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Hams are and have always been some cheap a$$ bastards. Come on...really, is $15 or more dollars really that steep. Free? No way should they be free. Hams want too much for free. Maybe we could get rid of some of the unwanted folks by making it more serious by charging and getting people committed, rather than getting licensed and then dropping the whole hobby in a few weeks.
I know if I could charge $25 a head I'd rush right out and get my extra, and get some classes (which also wouldn't be free) and have some exams. I'd make sure if your going to sit for an exam...your gonna pass it.
Posted by
N3PRZ
on April 26, 2009
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VE Fees
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VE's give their time. They shouldn't have to pay for getting to the test site or any other related expenses for that matter.
Posted by
W5DFD
on April 26, 2009
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VE Fees
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VE's give their time. They shouldn't have to pay for getting to the test site or any other related expenses for that matter.
Posted by
W5DFD
on April 26, 2009
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willy-nilly people
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I find most of the hams that are "willy-nilly people" are in the upper income bracket. So $50 is a drop in the bucket for "willy-nilly people"....
Posted by
WA8MEA
on April 26, 2009
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VE Fees
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Fifty bucks per test...make it worthwhile to keep willy-nilly people from taking it b/c it's so cheap.
Posted by
KA4AQM
on April 26, 2009
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Who cares?
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I don't really care.
What does bother me is the tests themselves.
They're horrible, in that they don't help the applicant demonstrate the slightest knowledge of radio communications theory or practice and have devolved into the pudding we have now.
I know that for certain when we have new Extra class licensees asking how to install a dipole. That was a question the typical Novice would not have asked in 1965.
Posted by
WB2WIK
on April 26, 2009
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Fees
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I think it is ok between $10.00 and $15.00 for the fee. IMHO the $14.00 (well $42.00 for the Tech, General written, and then finally the CW test. All passed with flying colors.) I paid was her best 14.00 i have ever spent in my life!!!!
Posted by
K9FON
on April 26, 2009
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VE -Fees
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How about they charge $15 for the test and you get 50% back if you pass the test or maybe 50% back if you pass general.
Posted by
K5CQB
on April 26, 2009
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Fees
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Well, here goes. I can't tell you how much to charge, but something should be charged, because the test coordinator, at least, has the expense and effort of keeping and printing the test materials and submitting the information to his sponsoring agency or the FCC. I (and usually a friend) drive 36 miles each way for test sessions; because of that we don't attend every session, but as far as I am concerned, I am a VE because it is what I do to encourage new membership in the amateur radio fraternity and it is a small price to pay for such a worthwhile hobby. Some of my other hobbies (flying and SCUBA diving) have gone by the wayside because of health and financial reasons, but I continue to enjoy my amateur radio privileges. In addition, in spite of the sometimes flaming controversies I read here on E-Ham, when compared to other hobbies and almost everything else these days, it's still affordable. I learned a long time ago that enjoyment of your hobby, like enjoyment of a great cup of coffee, is a personal, subjective experience. We maybe should keep that in mind when we begin to criticize our fellow radio amateurs (or coffee drinkers).
Posted by
AI4WC
on April 26, 2009
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Laurel VEC
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The Laurel VEC has never charged any fees for administering Amateur Radio licensing examinations. Their integrity is undisputed.
Posted by
WB5CCO
on April 26, 2009
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VE FEES?
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If it's not worth $15 maybe your getting into the WRONG HOBBY?The VE's are using their own time & gas & MOST do a GREAT job & service.NONE of them are making a living or getting RICH from doing the testing for sure.SOME people want EVERYTHING for FREE & sit with their hand sticking out looking for a handout no matter what!
Posted by
W4KVW
on April 26, 2009
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A fee is really needed.
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We all know that no goods or services are free. Good can only be done at the expense of those who do it.
So the VEs pay a price by giving of their time and their responsibility. (If something is goes wrong, they can lose their licenses.) There are costs for administration and when a lot of folks take exams it can be substantial. You also need a hall or place to give the exam. The use and liability for the hall are not free.
Also, it would be wrong to give the examinee and potential license holder the illusion that the event is free. It would make the whole license seem less important. After all, it is important enough for the VEs to give their time and liability. Why should test takers walk away thinking that the whole thing is just a formality?
All of this can be corrected with a modest fee. Never, never a fee to keep out the riffraff! This would be an ugly attitude.
So, let's keep it as it is, with a modest fee to keep everything in proper perspective.
- Ray Mullin, AI2IA, VE
P.S. Volunteer as a VE. You will help grow the amateur radio service. You will do more good than you will ever realize!
Posted by
AI2IA
on April 26, 2009
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VE Fees
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Com on now Free only promotes negativity (is that a word?). We can buy thousand dollar rigs and hundred dollar antennas but we don't want to pay 20 bucks or so for our testing. Naaaa Free won't work.
Walter
KI4UCJ
Posted by
KI4UCJ
on April 26, 2009
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Cheap Hams
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Free is worth exactally what you pay for it.
I say $15.00 a head or more is very acceptable in today's economic conditions.
Posted by
N4CQR
on April 26, 2009
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fees
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Free is never appreciated in the long run.
respect disappears, honesty disappears
radio disappears.
Posted by
NY7Q
on April 26, 2009
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Keep VEC Honest
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Not always, but usually paying someone for service will make them value their job more, and keep them honest.
Posted by
W1IT
on April 26, 2009
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VE- Fees
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Voluntary examiners need only expect extra-ordinary expences be covered. Their time and transportaion is voluntary.
Posted by
W8BAQ
on April 26, 2009
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VE- Fees
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I don't know how the fees are broke down, but the VE people need to be paid for there gas and other expenses
Posted by
KA5ROW
on April 26, 2009
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